How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump • Hacker News Board

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#101

Post by mseebach » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 11:19 AM UTC

pyrale wrote: post #8

misja111 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the average banker has a greater desire for self-enrichment than say, the average lawyer or the average sales manager. And anyway, there's nothing wrong with a certain amount of greediness in a capitalist system, this is what drives innovation and efficiency. The problem with banking has been that the system is broken. Unlike other companies, mismanaged banks cannot go bankrupt because they drag the ent…

> And anyway, there's nothing wrong with a certain amount of greediness in a capitalist system, this is what drives innovation and efficiency. I wonder how many years will pass before people realize this mantra is an article of faith.

We're currently at 240 years, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

> It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.

http://geolib.com/smith.adam/won1-02.html

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#102

Post by tmaly » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 11:21 AM UTC

I think this idea that Trump is anti-establishment is a play right out of the Game of Cards show.

Look at Obama, he had the Hope and Change rhetoric going, they even gave him a Nobel Peace Prize.

What did he actually accomplish? Medical costs are 5x what they were in some cases. The middle east is still in disarray. Police and protesters are clashing.

They talk a big game before getting elected, but the reality is that they have very little power once they are elected.

They would be better off reading Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt then working off improving minor things.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#103

Post by rahimnathwani » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 11:25 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #13

cmarschner wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For economists, efficiency is simply that goods should be created where the surroundings are best suited for it - first described by David Ricardo in the 19th century. E.g. Cotton should be planted where there is the most fertile soil etc. This works best in a globalized economy where production can move around freely and where there are no trade restrictions. As a result, productivity is higher, meaning that goods a…

> For economists, efficiency is simply that goods should be created where the surroundings are best suited for it - first described by David Ricardo in the 19th century. E.g. Cotton should be planted where there is the most fertile soil etc. This seems slightly off to me. Cotton can be grown more efficiently (in the usual sense of less cost per unit return) in some climates than others. But the economy as a whole may…

"This seems slightly off to me."

You are correct. GP gave an example of absolute advantage. But Ricardo is more famous for demonstrating that comparative advantage can be enough to make trade worthwhile.

Your field may be 1/3 as efficient at making cotton than mine. But perhaps it's 1/5 as efficient as mine in growing olives. So, assuming we both want cotton and olives, it would be worth you growing more cotton, and swapping for some of my olives. I get a little more cotton than I would have alone. And you get a few more olives than you would have.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#104

Post by CM30 » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 11:25 AM UTC

MagnumOpus wrote: post #85

CM30 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a huge divide in London too. Places like Camden, Kensington and Barnet overwhelmingly voted remain. Other places like Havering, Barking and Dagenham and Bexley voted to leave. And some areas (like Newham) were extremely close as far as percentages go. http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/london-eu-referendum... General rule seems to be that places with lots of university students or large businesses tend…

> General rule seems to be that places with lots of university students or large businesses tended to vote remain and those with either deeply conservative populations or a lot of immigration tended to vote leave Doesn't think that is true. Lewisham, Lambeth and Tower Hamlets are some of the places with the most immigrants and remain won in all of these places by obscenely large margins. Maybe votes were more along r…

Not quite. Have you seen the demographics for Barking and Dagenham?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Borough_of_Barking_and_...

It's actually been specifically mentioned in a BBC article on the same subject:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21511904

On the other hand, Havering is the least ethnically diverse area in London. Upminster has the lowest Simpson Index in the country.

Maybe it's places with the highest and lowest amounts of diversity that voted leave and those in the middle that voted stay?

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#105

Post by CM30 » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 11:30 AM UTC

return0 wrote: post #72

CM30 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much this. And that's the issue with globalisation; it's great for those at the top, decent for those at the very bottom and often rather awful for those in the middle. The votes for Brexit, Trump, various far left and right wing parties, etc are a way of saying "let's watch the elite's world and system collapse on itself". They've seen how little any of this is doing for them as workers, and how every system…

> are a way of saying "let's watch the elite's world and system collapse on itself" I don't think people want to replace the elites with void. Maybe that's the case for nihilistic, fringe far-right or far-left parties. But when majorities or near majorities are voting for Trump or Brexit, they want to replace the elites with something else `. It's funny to watch the elites suddenly renouncing democracy because she st…

That's a depressing pattern in general. A lot of people like democracy... up until something or someone they don't like gets the majority of the vote.

It's especially interesting to see all the political figures against brexit talk about more referendums and reconsidering whether to leave the EU. Think it's time the Labour Party and the likes accepted the results and started thinking about how to make the best of it rather than trying to ignore the results of a major vote like this.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#106

Post by _yosefk » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 11:32 AM UTC

Rent control and protectionism are different, and immigration for instance, a hot subject in today's politics, is another thing altogether.

Supporting rent control doesn't make you stupid/uninformed, but the only other option is evil.

Protectionism is a complex topic in a world with currency manipulation, labor laws variability and geopolitical conflicts; it's only simple (and evil/stupid) in a world without these things.

And immigration is not just about economics, it's about who you want to live next door and vote. Here, people can disagree regardless of economic views.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#107

Post by summarite » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 11:33 AM UTC

People voted for change (Brexit?) in order to keep things unchanging?

Not sure the theory fully checks out, but it seems very clear indeed that the policy narrative that's all about economics is not something normal people can feel connected to. It's just that it's easy (?) to measure and thus has taken over the debate. But if I'm a German or Dutch worried that TTIP will bring America's 'chlorine-soaked chicken' on my plate you can tell me as much about job gains as you want and i won't hear it - statistics and numbers don't feel real. Policy has to find the reconnect with reality, that means probably to purge the lawyer and economist thinking that pretty much dominates all ministries and government.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#108

Post by summarite » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 11:33 AM UTC

People voted for change (Brexit?) in order to keep things unchanging?

Not sure the theory fully checks out, but it seems very clear indeed that the policy narrative that's all about economics is not something normal people can feel connected to. It's just that it's easy (?) to measure and thus has taken over the debate. But if I'm a German or Dutch worried that TTIP will bring America's 'chlorine-soaked chicken' on my plate you can tell me as much about job gains as you want and i won't hear it - statistics and numbers don't feel real. Policy has to find the reconnect with reality, that means probably to purge the lawyer and economist thinking that pretty much dominates all ministries and government.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#109

Post by monk_e_boy » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 11:39 AM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #63

monk_e_boy wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is it exactly. Staying (and therefore nothing changing) was a really bad option for millions of people. Brexit was change. And maybe, just maybe it would be a change for good. Staying and project fear did not offer hope.

I'm not sure, the left wants to offer more welfare, the right crappy minimum wage jobs and the populists offer pie in the sky. I don't think any of them have a real solution.

There was a thing called [left-exit] that a lot of us voted for. There was also a good [green-exit] argument which made a lot of sense. Just because these are both almost hopeless...

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#110

Post by misja111 » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 11:52 AM UTC

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #92

objectivistbrit wrote: post #47

I'm pro-economic liberty and voted for Brexit. Every analysis like this has tunnel vision: yes, the free trade opened up by the EU brought prosperity to an entire continent. Had we been voting for the 1970s era EEC, I'd have gladly voted Remain. But in 40 years the EEC has evolved into the EU, with a constitution, a parliament, a president, a national anthem, a flag, supreme law-making powers and a currency. Maybe th…

> Had we been voting for the 1970s era EEC, I'd have gladly voted Remain. The UK was not a signatory of any relevant treaty post-EEC. It opted out of the Schengen Area, of the Euro zone and even of the Charter of Fundamental Rights. The idea that the UK was being controlled by a distant bureaucracy in Brussels is one of the many lies told by tabloids. The EU is far from perfect, but the UK was never in it in any mean…

> There is no EU constitution, by the way. It was rejected by referendum in several member states and the project died.

It's true the EU constitution was rejected, but the project didn't die: it was replaced by the treaty of Lisbon which contained most of the changes which were in the proposal for the EU constitution. See for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitu...

The fact that those changes were brought back in via the back door created even more distrust in the political leaders and the EU than before, in particular in those countries where the EU constitution was rejected in referendums.