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The limited value of a computer science education

nathanmarz.com

101–110 of 163 posts

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#101
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a degree in Mathematics, I think my educational experience has made me a better developer than if I'd have pursued a pure CS degree alone. Does that mean that I think everyone who wants to develop software should get a math degree? Not even a little bit. But I also don't think they should pursue a CS degree either. In the end the answer is "it's complicated, and there isn't one good answer yet", but we don't g…

You're still, in this post, trying to extract the value of a degree in terms of job power. That's what I'm arguing against. I paid $180,000 to go to university and I think it was 100% worth it, regardless of my job or how much it helped my job. My selection of 7 points was mainly to make a point , that point being that I see a lot of value in university, many people do, and we should all stop trying to fit all of thi…

Interesting. I was with you until this post--I'm curious if you haven't wondered, even a bit, if 180k was too steep of a price tag? I'm a fan of university in general, but find the sky-high prices of private institutions hard to stomach compared to similarly-good in-state options.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#102
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the other 90% of their budget is going to useless pet projects and bureaucratic waste.

This is a very pessimistic and conspiracy-theorist-ish way to look at it. Yeah, most entities in the world don't operate at maximum efficiency or make perfect use of their money. Doesn't make them worthless, or even close to it.

Yes, 90% is me being a little facetious. I don't know the exact number. But I saw the waste first hand. My college ran large parts of its operations for the benefit of the employees, to the active detriment of the students and everyone else. For example, dining employees were easily paid 2x market wage, probably 4x counting fringe-benefits, while students were forced to pay for a wildly overpriced meal plan that robbed all of the local restaurants (which were all within a quarter-mile of the three dining halls) and supermarkets of business.

They also ran a fancy hotel that charges many hundreds per night, right in the heart of campus. They consistently failed to make a profit for years and then totally bungled recent renovations, going 3x over budget and delivering behind schedule. Here's an interesting (and admittedly biased) blog post documenting that sorry saga: http://www.dartblog.com/data/2012/01/009957.php

Throughout the country, tuition has risen many times over in the past few decades, but the money isn't going to hiring more professors. It's going to hiring more and more college administrators and staff, and on loss-making sports programs that go well beyond recreational athletics. Every single type of minority possible had at least one administrative department dedicated to them, each with multiple staff members, and often with physical plants. Many (most?) of these were straight-up indoctrination outfits, pushing critical-theory Marxism on students, teaching them that they're the victims of the white establishment, and fanning the flames of campus protests.

Don't take my word, ask the American Association of University Professors:

>The increase in spending on administrative functions, coupled with a decline in state funding relative to institutional operating expenses, is clearly connected to the continuing increases in tuition prices on many campuses. As we have noted in this report on several occasions in recent years, faculty pay is not driving up tuition costs. In fact, the stagnant salaries paid to full-time faculty members combined with the increasing use of lower-paid part-time and non-tenure-track faculty appointments have been reflected in the lowered relative spending on instruction documented earlier in this section. But don’t just take our word for it. The most recent report from the Delta Cost Project concluded that “faculty salaries were not the leading cause of rising college tuitions during the past decade. Increased benefits costs, nonfaculty positions added elsewhere on campus, declines in state and institutional subsidies, and other factors all played a role.”

Source: https://www.aaup.org/reports-publications/2013-14salarysurve...

This guy from the New York Times agrees with me: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/the-real-re...

An NPR article: http://www.npr.org/2012/06/26/155766786/whats-driving-colleg...

The LA Times: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/12/opinion/la-oe-dreifu...

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#103
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that institutions like that are a societal racket and waste of time and money. This is completely wrong. Universities are tremendously useful and do many great things for society and humanity. I'm not going to provide evidence because I think that any reasonable person will agree with me.

While it's clear many university institutes and projects have benefited the wider public, I think he was specifically referring to the value of university to an individual, for most people (excepting those who are studying sciences to enter a specific niche field where they wouldn't be able to pick up the necessary skills anywhere else) university is indeed a waste of time and money. I'm a 22 year old developer based…

> I'm a 22 year old developer based in Australia, I've been working in the web industry full time since I was 18 and been earning money all along.

You're conflating Comp Sci with programming. I think it's pretty clear you don't need CS to be a productive developer, especially if the kind of work you're interested in doing involves building small to medium size websites and CRUD apps using other people's libraries and frameworks. Try to go beyond that however and you will quickly find out why so many people value a formal education.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#104
post #2

"I hope to see the industry improve in this respect, but in the meantime I'm happy to exploit this imbalance as a competitive advantage." I wonder how much of requiring a computer science degree is simply because the people hiring have computer science degrees. Seems like a self perpetuating insiders club.

I have a CS degree and would value it not at all when judging a candidate for a web/mobile dev job.

It's interesting that this story appears at the same time that an article about how memory games designed to improve your intelligence only improve your memory with that memory game - not in broader contexts.

Chess masters are no better than beginners at memorizing chess boards with a more random arrangement of the same pieces.[0]

Expertise in humans seems to be highly specialized.

So then why do we expect algorithmic knowledge of a CS degree from people writing modern crud web apps?

It's ridiculous.

[0]https://psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson/ericsson.mem.exp.html

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#105
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what is the point then?

If you can't see the point, then maybe university isn't for you. I'm not going to write an essay on what point I saw in school because I don't have time or interest. The point is that I saw value in it. I liked learning about computer science. Why can't people stop shitting on this concept?

I went to university, and you're right, it wasn't for me. It also wasn't for the vast majority of people I knew that went.

It's great that you saw value in it. I do think you are in the minority. Most people don't like learning about stuff at the same time as working a job and throwing all their money at the university just to teach them stuff.

Almost every person that goes to a university is doing it for job prospects. Unquestionably. They think it's the new high school diploma, and in a lot of ways and industries they are correct.

You are an outlier, and that's why people are shitting on this concept.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#106

I may have been lucky, but I don't recognize this statement when I think of my own CS curriculum: The vast majority of what a programmer does, forming good abstractions and avoiding complexity, is almost completely untouched by computer science curriculums. That's the majority of what my CS degree covered, in several different programming paradigms. Even the idea that there are "programming paradigms" is something I…

Sounds like the kind of course that I would have wanted (I dropped out of mine). The sad thing is that they get squashed under the weight of students and industry railing against learning 'theoretical' stuff because it seems like it isn't 'real world' enough. On the contrary I've found my self-education in type theory, programming languages, and discrete mathematics hugely beneficial in helping me pick up new technology fast, and finding the right abstractions for the job at hand.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#107
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't see the point, then maybe university isn't for you. I'm not going to write an essay on what point I saw in school because I don't have time or interest. The point is that I saw value in it. I liked learning about computer science. Why can't people stop shitting on this concept?

Good for you for being lucky enough to be able to follow your dreams. But you have to understand that other people mostly just care about being able to put food on the table, pay rent, and being able to save up enough to be able to support a family and buy a house.

> people mostly just care about being able to put food on the table, pay rent, and being able to save up enough to be able to support a family and buy a house.

I think that's what capote is frustrated with.

College (traditionally, at least in the U.S.) is one of the only spaces that encourages young people to have dreams at all. It provides an environment where becoming radicalized is accepted as a norm, where young people can dream of a life and of a society other than the status quo.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#108
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very pessimistic and conspiracy-theorist-ish way to look at it. Yeah, most entities in the world don't operate at maximum efficiency or make perfect use of their money. Doesn't make them worthless, or even close to it.

Yes, 90% is me being a little facetious. I don't know the exact number. But I saw the waste first hand. My college ran large parts of its operations for the benefit of the employees, to the active detriment of the students and everyone else. For example, dining employees were easily paid 2x market wage, probably 4x counting fringe-benefits, while students were forced to pay for a wildly overpriced meal plan that robb…

DDS is and was a complete fucking scam. Seriously, nobody should make $20/hr for being a lunch lady, not even Ray - and I love the guy, since he does such a great job with Pigstick. Not to mention OPAL and the various other Collis directorates - I'll be honest, I benefited from all of them, since I worked for the A/V tech staff on work-study, but the amount of money that was lit on fire to administrate all of that is sickening.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#109
Another thing that bothered me about the article, although it did make some good points, is that it just assumes that the choice is either four years of employment as a programmer at some level or four years of uni. If you're trying to get a job as a developer as an 18-year-old with a fresh H.S. diploma and maybe some tech school credits, your competition isn't other H.S. diploma carrying developers, it's a 22 year old graduate with a CS degree.

If you live somewhere that you can get a job in the field directly out of High School, that's all well and good, but it's alot harder for a variety of reasons than someone who has finished a degree. Which is one reason why so many people go that route.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#110

As someone that had a highly theoretical computer science education, worked in the industry for three years, then returned to academic CS for summer research, I have a few thoughts on this. 1. A highly theoretical CS foundation is still very useful. One of the hardest classes I've ever taken in all my studies was an upper-level proof-based algorithms course. Nowadays I can glance at an algorithm and give you it's run…

I wonder if part of the problem is some universities watering down core, foundational, beautiful CS to try and make it 'practical'. They end up with a course labelled 'CS', but is actually a poorly implemented, behind-the times, irrelevant software engineering course that is the worst of both worlds...
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