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Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

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Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#101

Post by jacques_chester »

goatforce5 wrote: post #92
jacques_chester wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Australian. We have a special visa, the E3, which is very easy to get. Meanwhile almost everyone else is stuck in the H1B shitshow, which has in the past 5 years grown from merely "terrible" to "nuclear-powered self-propelling toxic thunderblob".

Does the E3 still have the "if you lose your job you have 2 weeks to leave the country" clause on it? It had me on edge the whole time I was in the States (which funnily enough prompted me to find a job in Toronto).

Yes, but with the job market the way it is, it's not too risky.

Here's how it would play out if I left my job.

I'd fly to Toronto on Canada's visa waiver, wait there until the E3 expired.

Fly back to NYC on the USA's visa waiver program. This gives me 90 days to find an employer who will sponsor an E3.

Fly back to Toronto to get the E3 done.

Fly back to NYC to start the job.

It'd be a silly shuffle of about a month, and more disruptive and expensive than it would be for someone holding a green card or citizenship. But in no sense would it be a game-over disaster.

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#102

Post by potatolicious »

vigilant wrote: post #61
chawco wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did. Toronto is a great city. I've traveled a good deal in Canada, and the US, and while I can't compare it to cities outside of those two, I will say that I still consider the best city I've ever experienced. While the tech scene isn't as hot as the other regions you mentioned, it's still strong. Very strong. It's also starting to be noticed by the bigger players (with Google and Apple both investing in the region…

I do love Canada, but New York City has nearly all of those same positives which you list (other than universal health care), to an even greater extent. And you can get bay-area level salaries there (as opposed to Toronto, where your salary is half what it would be in the bay area)

Yeah, I'm in NYC, having lived also in Toronto and SF before. No way I'd choose Toronto over NYC - larger tech scene (both BigCo and startups), diverse economy, working transit, huge cultural hub (many times greater than Toronto), and tremendous food scene (again, many times greater than TO).

Having recently taken a poke around the Toronto tech market, "half" salary in Toronto is being generous. Where I'm at right now (~SDE3 in most companies) the pay in Toronto is 1/3 to 1/4 what you can get in the Bay Area or NYC.

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#103

Post by DeBraid »

Toronto and Kitchener-Waterloo are both healthy, vibrant startup hubs, but are distinct regions IMO. They are 120km apart and it takes ~90min to drive from Communitech to MARS https://goo.gl/maps/vRJqc7JsNcp.

Both positively influence each other, compete for resources. Waterloo has some more affordable suburban housing, and less vibrant city/'downtown'. Toronto is more expensive, is bigger and better in many respects.

Vancouver and Montreal are also decent startup ecosystems. I've been writing a researching Canadian cities/startup ecosystems for a book. Lots of stats and resources here if you're really into this topic: https://github.com/DeBraid/ham-innov-essay

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#104

Post by chawco »

lj3 wrote: post #78
chawco wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did. Toronto is a great city. I've traveled a good deal in Canada, and the US, and while I can't compare it to cities outside of those two, I will say that I still consider the best city I've ever experienced. While the tech scene isn't as hot as the other regions you mentioned, it's still strong. Very strong. It's also starting to be noticed by the bigger players (with Google and Apple both investing in the region…

Are you an American or a Canadian? As an American, every time I talk to a Canadian company they assume there must be something wrong with me. They don't understand why anybody would choose the cold and less pay over someplace like SF.

I'm Canadian, so obviously there's some inherent bias. Part of it is the annoyance of visa, permanent resident, and citizenship shenanigans necessary to get into the US (TN visas are non-residency track).

Part of it is cultural -- I feel like people are friendlier here in general (although the difference isn't so great in the bay area), even in the bigger cities.

Part of it is really hard to describe -- there's just something that feels grimy about American cities in general. By comparison virtually every Canadian city I've been in feels much cleaner than every american city I've been in. San Francisco and New York can feel particularly bad -- I never smell human urine walking down the street in Toronto, but it's a regular occurrence for me in San Francisco.

Then there's the homeless situation. Toronto is by no means free of homeless people, but the problem seems to exist on a completely different scale than it does in San Francisco or New York. It really makes a big difference in how you experience a city, for me at least.

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#105

Post by frozenport »

RBO2 wrote: post #98
minwcnt5 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

REALLY strange choice of data point for Toronto -- it uses a much smaller land area than for the US cities. Greater Toronto Area - 7,124 km^2 Chicago Metro Area - 28,120 km^2 Houston Metro Area - 26,061 km^2 Dallas-Fort Worth - 24,059 km^2 Washington Metro - 14,412 km^2 Philadelphia Metro - 13,256 km^2 A much more apples-to-apples comparison would be the Golden Horseshoe (7.005 million / 10,097 km^2), or Greater Gold…

These area are huge. Switzerland is 41,285 km^2, Belgium is 30,528 km^2, The Netherlands is 41,543 km^2.

Having lived in Chicago, I was genuinely surprised by Belgium's comparably small size.

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#106

Post by adaml_623 »

sotojuan wrote: post #30

Depends on the salaries they offer, doesn't it?

I don't know how to upvote this subject enough. All these places wanting to compete with Silicon Valley do not compete on the salary they are willing to pay software development.

London has this problem. I'm sure anthropologists could study it and say it has something to do with where software engineers sit in the pack hierarchy in each community. Whatever it impacts the ability of businesses to execute.

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#107

Post by Aelinsaar »

justinlaing wrote: post #10

Who is going to move to Toronto to join the tech scene? If given the choice who is going to choose Toronto over Bay Area or Seattle? Without it having a massive draw it won't even register compared to Bay Area or even Seattle.

One earthquake could change that overnight. If they're betting on that eventually, they just need to stay lined up in the #2 slot.

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#108

Post by amscanne »

stuxnet79 wrote: post #19

Eeh ... as a Torontonian developer I don't buy it. Most of the good graduates we have move to Bay Area or Seattle. If you want your career to progress meaningfully you pretty much have to move to the states. Maybe this might change in the future but the story on the ground is very different. Also nitpick - we are the fourth most populous city in North America, and only Mexico City , New York and Los Angeles have a la…

> Also nitpick - we are the fourth most populous city in North America, and only Mexico City, New York and Los Angeles have a larger population. As of mid last year, Toronto contains more people than Chicago.

Ugh, this is a pet peeve of mine. The city limits are drawn in such a way that Toronto _technically_ edges out Chicago. Torontonians seem to feel this is a meaningful point of pride.

Get real. The metro Toronto area is 7 million people. The metro Chicago area is nearly 10 million.

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#109

Post by Bahamut »

AlexC04 wrote: post #94
jt2190 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes? Canadians jump very quickly into the highest tax brackets. Goods and Services are taxed in Ontario at... 14% now?

Perhaps surprisingly, that's mostly a wash. Canadian federal tax is 33% over 200k USA is 33% over 189K Ontario taxes 11.16% up to 500k California 9.3% up to 250k ... Ok so realistically 2% in taxes :). Maybe that's not a total wash. But if we're looking at the break-even point it might hit $3k in California's favor

California's taxes are not straightforward. For example, my effective state tax rate is ~7.3% at $160k. It's a progressive tax, so calculations aren't as easy as slapping a generalized number.

If you're making $500k, it also isn't likely a high point of concern.

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