The effects of living in a poor neighborhood • Hacker News Board

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#101

Post by Noseshine » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 8:52 AM UTC

mffhts wrote: post #92

kentrado wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't usually write responses and I don't have much time to write you a detailed explanation of history. But are you aware that there are living black people who still remember segregation and Jim Crow? It wasn't that long ago. The idea that just because recently you decided to treat niggers like human beings, they should instantly have the same level as people who were never treated as subhuman in this US of A, is…

Read 'Black Family in Slavery and Freedom' by Gutman. There are many metrics by which the black family is doing worse now than it was during slavery. E.g. Teenage pregnancy and female headed households have gone up, with a large spike from the 1960s. Black teenage unemployment was also lower than white teenage unemployment for several years in the 40s. It can be debated what impact slavery has had, but slavery cannot…

That does nothing at all to undermine the point. Why would you expect them to do better after centuries of being taught to obey and strict separation and major disadvantages that still last? Recently I watched a lecture exploring the long-term public health consequences of apartheid ion South Africa. The blacks had been deliberately - and I mean as conscious government policy laid down in papers - taught to live a dependent life, obey the authorities, not think for their own. So of course you get horrible results now that they are "free". You think that proves something about them? When people say "it's cultural" as if that means "it's genetic" - that "culture" also is the result of the policies and treatment they received over the centuries.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#102

Post by mffhts » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 8:58 AM UTC

Noseshine wrote: post #101

mffhts wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read 'Black Family in Slavery and Freedom' by Gutman. There are many metrics by which the black family is doing worse now than it was during slavery. E.g. Teenage pregnancy and female headed households have gone up, with a large spike from the 1960s. Black teenage unemployment was also lower than white teenage unemployment for several years in the 40s. It can be debated what impact slavery has had, but slavery cannot…

That does nothing at all to undermine the point. Why would you expect them to do better after centuries of being taught to obey and strict separation and major disadvantages that still last? Recently I watched a lecture exploring the long-term public health consequences of apartheid ion South Africa. The blacks had been deliberately - and I mean as conscious government policy laid down in papers - taught to live a de…

You've made about ~8 points which would take longer to address than I currently have to spare. I suggest you read 'Black Family in Slavery and Freedom' as well as Booker T. Washington and Thomas Sowell's work. Their scholarship is infinitely greater than any summary I could provide.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#103

Post by thowfaraway » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 9:05 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #87

Snargorf wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those rates were basically fiction. All they led to (and the only reason they could be levied) was a huge system of fake on-paper money-losing schemes. People would arrange all sorts of business ventures and other schemes to appear to be losing money, and thus reduce their taxes. The actual tax receipts as a percentage of income were very close to what they are today.

Reagan's tax deal with Congress was eliminate the tax shelters in exchange for lowing the top rate. The former has been forgotten.

The main goal of the 1986 tax deal was simplification, eliminating tax shelters was inherent to the plan, not something traded for lower rates. If there was any exchange for lower top rates, it was raising corporate and capital gains taxes to keep the plan revenue neutral.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#104

Post by thowfaraway » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 9:15 AM UTC

Noseshine wrote: post #101

mffhts wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read 'Black Family in Slavery and Freedom' by Gutman. There are many metrics by which the black family is doing worse now than it was during slavery. E.g. Teenage pregnancy and female headed households have gone up, with a large spike from the 1960s. Black teenage unemployment was also lower than white teenage unemployment for several years in the 40s. It can be debated what impact slavery has had, but slavery cannot…

That does nothing at all to undermine the point. Why would you expect them to do better after centuries of being taught to obey and strict separation and major disadvantages that still last? Recently I watched a lecture exploring the long-term public health consequences of apartheid ion South Africa. The blacks had been deliberately - and I mean as conscious government policy laid down in papers - taught to live a de…

Why would you expect them to do better after centuries of being taught to obey

The insinuation that a reason blacks don't do better because they are trained or bred to be obedient is pretty gross, and not that different from the racist "docile negro" rhetoric of a century ago. Why not start with expectations that anyone can better themselves, regardless of race? If you want someone to move up, do you think they have a better chance of doing it if society tells them the can, or they can't?

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#105

Post by WalterBright » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 9:23 AM UTC

thowfaraway wrote: post #103

WalterBright wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reagan's tax deal with Congress was eliminate the tax shelters in exchange for lowing the top rate. The former has been forgotten.

The main goal of the 1986 tax deal was simplification, eliminating tax shelters was inherent to the plan, not something traded for lower rates. If there was any exchange for lower top rates, it was raising corporate and capital gains taxes to keep the plan revenue neutral.

Wealthy people do not care about tax simplification, they care about how much in tax they have to pay. So the trade was lower tax rates overall in exchange for giving up the low tax rates that made tax shelters extremely attractive.

Your position underestimates how pervasive tax avoidance using shelters was at the time. The wealthy were never going to give that up for simplification, after all, they could have simplified their taxes anyway by not investing in shelters if that was their issue.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#106

Post by bo1024 » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 9:26 AM UTC

ausjke wrote: post #76

Why blacks are not doing well? Because they were from Africa, but new immigrants from Africa came to US earn a pretty decent life quickly than those have been here centuries ago. Because they're minority, but other minorities such as the Jews and Asians are working hard and earning a decent life here. Because of less chance to get education, but you have affirmative action that you can get into decent college at a hu…

Yes: you are missing the history of the United States. This was most of the point of the article: Black people disproportionately live in poverty (not to mention the history of discrimination in this country), and the effects of living in poverty are extremely harmful. Your post seems to be missing the history of human slavery in the United States, the subsequent history of discrimination, and the conditions it created whose effects and legacy are still very strong today. You can't control for these factors by comparing to other minority immigrant groups!!

One can argue that there are negative cultural effects, but it's a chicken-and-egg issue because history has created conditions for cultures of e.g. gangs and violence to arise. Similarly, the solution must address both the chicken and the egg. Your comment about "the black community needs to address" black culture, while perhaps well-intentioned, is the sort of argument historically commonly used by powerful whites to justify a "not my problem" philosophy toward black poverty and living conditions that create a negative culture.

How does one create a culture that favors education when inner-city schools provide useless educations and are filled with gang violence, when there is little hope of using education for good? How does one create a "hard working" culture when the best "jobs" that seem realistically available are selling drugs, or when hard work fails to be rewarded due to discrimination? How does one create a culture of "loyal to family" when 73% of black children live in single-parent households (compared to 25% of white children)? (source: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jul/... )

All I can do in closing is suggest that, if you really want to understand your question "why are blacks not doing well", you should read some history, studies/statistics, and accounts of what life is currently like for blacks in the US.

(Edited to change the source of the data.)

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#107

Post by galfarragem » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 9:29 AM UTC

Empirically (aka having grown up in a poor neighbourhood) I would say that during infancy it doesn't matter much, it mostly depends on your parents background: they are the largest influence on you. It really starts to hurt is during teenage years when kids get independent. Then one of two situations use to happen: the environment pushes them down or they remove themselves from it and grow lonely. None of the options is optimal.

Law 10: Infection: avoid the unhappy and the unlucky. -- Robert Greene (48 laws of power)

Law 18: Do not build fortresses to protect yourself – isolation is dangerous -- Robert Greene (48 laws of power)

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#108

Post by eumoria » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 11:04 AM UTC

bo1024 wrote: post #106

ausjke wrote: post #76

Why blacks are not doing well? Because they were from Africa, but new immigrants from Africa came to US earn a pretty decent life quickly than those have been here centuries ago. Because they're minority, but other minorities such as the Jews and Asians are working hard and earning a decent life here. Because of less chance to get education, but you have affirmative action that you can get into decent college at a hu…

Yes: you are missing the history of the United States. This was most of the point of the article: Black people disproportionately live in poverty (not to mention the history of discrimination in this country), and the effects of living in poverty are extremely harmful. Your post seems to be missing the history of human slavery in the United States, the subsequent history of discrimination, and the conditions it creat…

I live in a ~70% black neighborhood in NYC and the crack epidemic[0] of the late 80s into the 90s really destroyed a lot of the healthy culture that americans of african descent cherished through the 60s and 70s. Older guys on my block describe it like a warzone and, while I'm sure slightly hyperbolic, really took its toll on everyone there. There's so many factors here.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crack_epidemic

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#109

Post by pjc50 » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 11:13 AM UTC

cb18 wrote: post #51

Doesn't all this seem somewhat backward. There's this victimization mentality that acts like poverty is this absolute thing that is meted out like a cursed rock, outside the control and agency of whom it's been placed upon. Why don't we have more discussion about the causes that lead to the effect of poverty. It's really more productive to see poverty as being an effect, or outcome of other causes or actions. Change…

Do all soldiers come home as dunces?

Many come home with post-traumatic stress disorder. Having people murdered in your neighbourhood can also result in PTSD.

less happy, less hopeful, and less healthy would make their neighborhoods poorer

Which way does the causation really run here?

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#110

Post by lkiernan » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 11:29 AM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #96

kentrado wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't usually write responses and I don't have much time to write you a detailed explanation of history. But are you aware that there are living black people who still remember segregation and Jim Crow? It wasn't that long ago. The idea that just because recently you decided to treat niggers like human beings, they should instantly have the same level as people who were never treated as subhuman in this US of A, is…

When you attempt to incite with such inflammatory language, do you consider how a black person might feel reading it? It isn't necessary to make your point.

Because he said the N-word? Come on.

Words have power and these words are strong. And they should be, because the response is directed at complete ignorance.

This kind of reaction feels quite closed-minded, working on racism-as-a-checklist.