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Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

theguardian.com

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Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#101

Post by TheLarch »

mindcrime wrote: post #46
TheLarch wrote: post #2

With the advancement of technology it's harder and harder to sympathize with the idea that firearms in the US could effectively combat governmental tyranny. Situations such as Ruby Ridge and Waco could be handled by drones now. It's hard to believe that there is a principle at play here deeper than a simple love of guns.

it's harder and harder to sympathize with the idea that firearms in the US could effectively combat governmental tyranny. People keep trotting out this argument, and it remains just as wrong. "Regular" firearms by themselves probably aren't enough to resist the US government, but that isn't the point. Firearms are just one tool out of many that would be in play if an actual armed revolution broke out. And what people…

"Firearms are just one tool out of many that would be in play if an actual armed revolution broke out."

I reject your premise. How will militias assemble before these conflicts can take place? Facebook? I'm not being facetious. A ruthless government could, in a state of emergency, cut off the internet in a locality, or lean of Facebook to turn over names, or etc. The internet IS the battleground. Physical control of land with guns is a small, receding target. Guns aren't protecting us from the government, the EFF is.

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#102

Post by knodi123 »

int_19h wrote: post #92
knodi123 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say "anybody with a brain". It still requires a lot of time, motivation, and uncommon resources. The real question is , should the law take any effort toward minimizing gun ownership by dangerous fruitcakes? If yes, then making it hard to trivially 3d print a gun is kind of necessary, otherwise, like you said, anybody with a brain could do it. Instead of now, where it requires a bit more.

It really doesn't require a lot of time nor resources. A 12 gauge zip gun is literally two steel tubes of the right diameter (can be found in most hardware store), and a tube cap with a hole that can have a bolt screwed in to serve as a firing pin. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1wV3lmbSv4 Now, it is single-shot - but because they are so easy and cheap to make, someone who wanted to cause mayhem could…

I said time, motivation, and uncommon resources.

As to the "uncommon resources" part- what percent of the people that you know have two steel tubes of the right diameter? I didn't say it was like securing refined plutonium for an A-bomb, but I stand by my statement that those resources are not common possessions.

As to the time part - yes, absolutely, it does. Just because you've got craft skills does not mean they are common. Do most people who own a home defense gun build them themselves using common parts from a hardware store? In fact, I bet that's extremely rare.

I didn't say they were super hard, and I didn't say the resources were super rare. They're not out of reach of any dedicated person who is intent on achieving a goal. But then, a speed bump doesn't force you to drive slower, either. You can sail over them at 90 miles an hour, once. But speed bumps still do their job.

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#103

Post by abakker »

Aelinsaar wrote: post #100
int_19h wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the thing - with the present level of technology, you can have a device that is, essentially, pre-programmed CNC to make AR lowers (which is what Ghost Gunner is, for example) for under $300. To make a fully functional firearm from there, you also need a complete upper - can be had for another $400 or so these days; and a complete lower part kit with buffer tube and stock - can be had for less than $100. F…

The cost argument is sound, and I'm not disputing it, but rather I'm thinking in the broader terms of the "Gun Control" debate. At some point in the future, maybe a decade, maybe two, supply-side gun control is going to be a pointless exercise. My argument however, is that the time has not yet come, although it's clearly on the horizon. For now "Just get a CNC mill and learn how to use it" is still a substantial hurd…

Gun buybacks are the best gun control method I can think of. supply side is problematic especially in the US, where the amount of owned, unregistered guns is enormous. I think the first step is reducing the supply of used guns. and, it has the side effect that the people who sell guns to government for cheap, likely would sell the gun for cheap to anyone. Might as well be the government, though.

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#104

Post by hga »

abakker wrote: post #103
Aelinsaar wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost argument is sound, and I'm not disputing it, but rather I'm thinking in the broader terms of the "Gun Control" debate. At some point in the future, maybe a decade, maybe two, supply-side gun control is going to be a pointless exercise. My argument however, is that the time has not yet come, although it's clearly on the horizon. For now "Just get a CNC mill and learn how to use it" is still a substantial hurd…

Gun buybacks are the best gun control method I can think of. supply side is problematic especially in the US, where the amount of owned, unregistered guns is enormous. I think the first step is reducing the supply of used guns. and, it has the side effect that the people who sell guns to government for cheap, likely would sell the gun for cheap to anyone. Might as well be the government, though.

In the US at least, there are three classes of people who are willing to sell guns cheap at a buy back, and this is why the concept has never taken off, along of course with the cost, which isn't effective at buying votes:

Criminals wishing to dispose of weapons used in crime.

Savvy types who sell guns that are worth less.

The ignorant/those who don't want to be bothered to easily dispose of guns that they've inherited or whatever.

The savvy types will work the line to buy guns from the latter that are worth significantly more than the price.

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#105

Post by hga »

Aelinsaar wrote: post #98
hga wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ghost Gunner drills/machines the right holes in an 80% receiver, it doesn't start with a 0% receiver: http://www.80percentarms.com/products/0-billet-ar-15-lower-r... But it's not very difficult to start at that level: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-cartel-gunsmiths $25K for a pro CNC machine isn't much in the scheme of things.

For a cartel? It's nothing. For most people who want a particular gun, and don't intend to monetize the purchase, never mind the time taken to learn how to work and maintain it? That's a hell of a thing to be honest.

The real barrier is the knowledge, you don't need a relatively new CNC machine like that if you're just going to make a few for yourself. And old but high quality non-CNC machines are sufficient for that, and require a somewhat different set of skills.

But that's not the scenario I'm thinking about, nor is it relevant as of now in a country which has more than doubled its gun production since Obama was elected, with > 100 million being sold in that period (obviously not all those were new).

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#106

Post by hga »

Frondo wrote: post #99
hga wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because a lot of us don't want to let anyone know exactly when we'll take up arms, especially the more they have to lose and the more covert they might want to be about it. Me, I have a number of declared lines in the sand, the first and most obvious is required registration of all firearms. Although the kinds of enemy of the state I'd become is not so obvious, e.g. I won't start wacking government officials.…

Heh, and I don't want anyone like you judging when it is a good idea to overthrow the government. Frankly speaking, I already don't trust the judgment of anyone who talks so casually about revolution as you've done here ("I have a number of declared lines in the sand"?????). I have far more confidence in the current system than anything that would emerge when the internet tough guys get together to try and take it do…

Heh, and I don't want anyone like you judging when it is a good idea to overthrow the government.

Unfortunately for you, you don't get to decide that for others. "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you" (misattributed to Trotsky).

and "I have a number of declared lines in the sand" and other such statements is not rational nor reasonable

And we should care about your opinion because...?

that would make me worried for how my friends, family, loved ones would be treated on the other side of such a revolution.

Then, if you're on the Left/progressive, you should stop pushing the other half of the country so hard. The other half just wants to be left alone, but that's obviously not happening.

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#107

Post by Aelinsaar »

hga wrote: post #105
Aelinsaar wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a cartel? It's nothing. For most people who want a particular gun, and don't intend to monetize the purchase, never mind the time taken to learn how to work and maintain it? That's a hell of a thing to be honest.

The real barrier is the knowledge, you don't need a relatively new CNC machine like that if you're just going to make a few for yourself. And old but high quality non-CNC machines are sufficient for that, and require a somewhat different set of skills. But that's not the scenario I'm thinking about, nor is it relevant as of now in a country which has more than doubled its gun production since Obama was elected, with…

If the barrier to a decent firearm is knowledge of how to work and maintain and older CNC, that seems like a pretty excellent means of limiting firearms. "You're free to have what you can make from scratch, up to a certain point."

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#108

Post by Frondo »

hga wrote: post #106
Frondo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, and I don't want anyone like you judging when it is a good idea to overthrow the government. Frankly speaking, I already don't trust the judgment of anyone who talks so casually about revolution as you've done here ("I have a number of declared lines in the sand"?????). I have far more confidence in the current system than anything that would emerge when the internet tough guys get together to try and take it do…

Heh, and I don't want anyone like you judging when it is a good idea to overthrow the government. Unfortunately for you, you don't get to decide that for others. "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you" (misattributed to Trotsky). and "I have a number of declared lines in the sand" and other such statements is not rational nor reasonable And we should care about your opinion because...? that w…

Wow! You really want to go to war on your fellow Americans! So much for democracy, eh? Screw voting, let's kill those lefties, is what you're saying.

"if you're on the Left/progressive, you should stop pushing the other half of the country so hard."

So, because a bunch of folks on twitter talk about rape culture or because gay people can now marry their partners...line in the sand kind of thing? I mean, you won't disclose the things that make you want to use your guns to overthrow the government we all share, but "progressive" is part of it. I'm so curious which leftie policy it is that makes you want to start killing (literally, in your own words, Mister "War is interested in you"!), but maybe asking questions is something else that will literally drive you to attempt to overthrow our government. Who knows?

Man, if that isn't scary, I don't know what is.

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#109

Post by hga »

Frondo wrote: post #108
hga wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, and I don't want anyone like you judging when it is a good idea to overthrow the government. Unfortunately for you, you don't get to decide that for others. "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you" (misattributed to Trotsky). and "I have a number of declared lines in the sand" and other such statements is not rational nor reasonable And we should care about your opinion because...? that w…

Wow! You really want to go to war on your fellow Americans! So much for democracy, eh? Screw voting, let's kill those lefties, is what you're saying. "if you're on the Left/progressive, you should stop pushing the other half of the country so hard." So, because a bunch of folks on twitter talk about rape culture or because gay people can now marry their partners...line in the sand kind of thing? I mean, you won't dis…

No, Those Who Are No Longer Our Countrymen (TWANLOC) have been at war with my side for many decades, and things might be coming to a head. But I think the fact that my side is realizing we really are in a war, that we've been mostly losing outside of gun control (where our betters have been catastrophically losing outside of a few benighted states), and are starting to respond like in supporting Trump ... well, surely you've noticed where the violence is coming from against people who are merely engaging in core democratic political activities like attending a rally: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2016/06/videos-and-pho...

What do you suggest we do in the face of a violent Left?

As for the lines in the sand, the only one I've declared here, since it's a pretty low floor, is mandatory gun registration nationwide, since we know our history and what that portends. Beyond that, you're imputing stuff about me that's pure fantasy. But look at for example that ACLU leader who resigned after her daughters came face to face with the consequences of World War T.

And, as I'm saying, leave us the [expletive deleted] alone, to use one of your examples, don't make us bake your gay wedding cakes, and we won't have to go down these ugly paths.

But the Left is congenitally unable to do that, since among other things it believes in the perfectibility of man, vs. e.g. the doctrine of Original Sin, which as a favorite history professor noted to much laughter, "is an empirical observation". So, when we don't conform to your ideas of perfection, out comes the guillotine in the first modern incarnation of the Left, and, again, we who read our history know all that, and aren't going to passively be carted (tumbrelled) to them.

Yeah, you should find it scary if you haven't realized that you're in the middle of the war and, let me assume, not on the side that's now starting to get serious about fighting back. Democratically for the moment, but how long that's allowed isn't looking to be up to us, is it?

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#110

Post by mindcrime »

TheLarch wrote: post #101
mindcrime wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's harder and harder to sympathize with the idea that firearms in the US could effectively combat governmental tyranny. People keep trotting out this argument, and it remains just as wrong. "Regular" firearms by themselves probably aren't enough to resist the US government, but that isn't the point. Firearms are just one tool out of many that would be in play if an actual armed revolution broke out. And what people…

"Firearms are just one tool out of many that would be in play if an actual armed revolution broke out." I reject your premise. How will militias assemble before these conflicts can take place? Facebook? I'm not being facetious. A ruthless government could, in a state of emergency, cut off the internet in a locality, or lean of Facebook to turn over names, or etc. The internet IS the battleground. Physical control of…

Telephone, radio, couriers, etc...
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