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Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

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Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#101

Post by zymhan »

espadrine wrote: post #85
Houshalter wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to this essay, about 3% of men will get falsely accused of rape in their lifetime: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/17/lies-damned-lies-and-so... The real number is impossible to determine, but is uncomfortably high.

May I argue that it is uncomfortably low? The estimated percentage of women that are the victims of sexual assault is an order of magnitude higher. (See for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_in_the_United_S... ) > 23 percent of women and 4 percent of men reported experiencing unwanted sexual contact Even worse, 3% of false positives is a twenty-eighth of the percentage of unreported rapes: https:/…

You don't think it's possible that a small percentage of really shitty men are responsible for most of those of sexual assaults?

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#102

Post by nikcub »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #94
tptacek wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were 67,000+ sexual assault convictions in 2012, and 18 overturned convictions. Would you like that as a percentage? That's 0.02%.

Exactly. Convictions through the roof. That's why they should take it to court. Far as overturned, do you have data on how many got to prove something with DNA? Or conviction rate without it?

RAINN say[0], based on DOJ/FBI data, that ~30% of rapes get reported and only ~4% lead to a conviction

Ridiculously low rate of conviction

[0] https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#103

Post by bcg1 »

Sacho wrote: post #40
Sanddancer wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reporting it to the police is an amazingly stressful process that requires you to relive it again and again, being tried in the public eye, opening yourself up to claims of being a slut, etc. Just being able to admit you were raped is a strength a lot of victims don't have.

Creating a site that alleges you are a rapist is an amazingly stressful process for the presumed innocent person, requiring him to respond to a torrent of media and social hate and shunning, being tried in the public eye, open to claims of being a "monster", etc. You could argue you're "helping" more people by believing rape claims, but that's both mob rule(the rights of the many trample the rights of the few) and no…

"Presumed innocent" is only true with respect to the legal system of the state. Individuals are free to presume whatever they like for whatever purpose.

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#104

Post by tptacek »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #98
tptacek wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This ginned-up gender conflict is neither germane nor relevant to the discussion; comments like these are a big part of the reason these Appelbaum threads on HN are so awful.

It's not gendered up at all. You just cited 60,000+ rape convictions. They claim this guy is a rapist. The site wants to stop more rapes. Nobody wants to go to police though. Others instead talk like that's infeasible with multiple eyewitnesses to multiple rapes. Im calling out that BS. This needs to be in court, not Twitter or HN.

There are ways to suggest that this is a poor topic for online debate without arguing that rape victims who don't engage law enforcement are illegitimate. Unfortunately, it's hard to take that odious sentiment back now that you've put it out there.

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#105

Post by nickpsecurity »

tptacek wrote: post #93
nickpsecurity wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great analysis. He's seriously among the least likely people to be a sanctioned spy. Maybe potential to be a CI one day ratting on people to avoid time. Anybody is capable of that. Can't imagine anything more.

It's not a great analysis. It's a superficial recitation of details about Appelbaum from someone with just a casual acquaintance of who he is. That it would seem to anyone like a great analysis is extremely worrying. It suggests to me that this particular cohort of Internet message board nerds shouldn't be trying to debate this particular topic.

I assumed you did research on the man and topic before posting about it. Turns out it's accidentaly great as it matches detailed write-ups Ive read from multiple authors. Only difference is claimed amount of field-work he did deploying Tor. Some say a lot, some a little. That would make him important in privacy circles but again I get conflicting reports.

I studied spooks and black ops a long time, though. They wouldn't waste effort on him.

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#106

Post by geofft »

tptacek wrote: post #79
Chris2048 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While conspiracy theory is a risky proposition, in this case the agencies involved are known for such things. COINTELPRO, prism etc, so it's no entirely implausible to raise such concerns.

First: no, this is not plausible. Second, a question: exactly what is it that people think Jacob Appelbaum did to make him Public Enemy #1 of any government? He's not an especially important Tor contributor. Tor is not only funded by the US Government, but it began as a project at the Naval Research Lab. He's a spokesperson for Wikileaks, and Wikileaks has gotten itself engaged in serious legal issues with the US Gov…

I think you've conflated the conspiracy that I'm suggesting with the conspiracy suggested by the comment above me. To be clear, I don't think either of these conspiracies are plausible: the simplest theory that fits the evidence is "He's a creep". But I'm suggesting a very different conspiracy from one Appelbaum is insinuating: not that the government has beleaguered him with false accusations, but that the accusations are true, and that the fact that they are true is somehow related to him working for the government.

It's clear that his force of personality -- his "rock-star status", his "known for being known", etc. -- was able to censor talks at 30C3 (if Nick Farr's story is true, which I think it is). Is it so unlikely that this is the only time he did something like that? There are other reports of him passing off research as his own when it was actually by other people, and people being advised to let it go and not draw his ire. He's able to silence people in the security community, which is very powerful.

It's implausible that he himself is an enemy for his own work, but that's not what a mole or informant is for. It's somewhat more plausible (though, again, I think still unlikely) that he was a long-time informant, and his goal was to provide coercion about specific things being done in the security community and to silence specific voices.

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#107

Post by nickpsecurity »

tptacek wrote: post #91
nickpsecurity wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Most of the problems they mention for police apply to other tactics. Only difference is that the police (a) might punish them if they're lying or (b) might protect people via locking the guy ip if they think they're telling the truth. Unsubstantiated claims in social media are so much safer. ;)

The idea that rape victims who don't report crimes to law enforcement are illegitimate is horse-shit, and people who suggest otherwise should be embarrassed.

I'm talking about these people in the smear campaign which Ive referenced repeatedly here. Not arbitrary victims. It's these people that will "report crimes" to everyone on Internet but not to law enforcement. Even with hashes and shit.

You know, like most rape victims trying to stop specific rapists from hurting others...

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#109

Post by hackuser »

throwaway76543 wrote: post #95
hackuser wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With due respect, this is a politically charged issue so I'm dubious of trusting random people, such as the author of that article. Are there more established sources around on this issue?

Scott Alexander cited his sources. Perhaps read the article and follow up on them?

Generally a fair statement, but not always realistic:

1) I simply don't have time to read the citations of everything I read (and then check the citations' citations).

2) Even with a solid factual basis, it's easy to twist and spin and fool people who lack expertise in the field. For example, the author could simply omit essential facts.

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