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Growing Rift Between Valve and Oculus

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Re: Growing Rift Between Valve and Oculus

#101

Post by hbosch »

errantspark wrote: post #74
phoboslab wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valve's Lighthouse tracking system isn't particularly elegant from a usability standpoint. I see Oculus' and Valve's current systems as a temporary solution. The future likely is in inside out tracking (i.e. one or more cameras on the headset, looking out). Oculus is working on that. I'd be surprised if Valve isn't. I agree with your comments on the Oculus platform. It's sad to see them building higher and higher wal…

I'd like to hear you expand on that, perhaps we don't align on the definition of elegant? I think the Lighthouse system is elegant specifically because it doesn't use cameras at all. That's what makes it so cool is that it's not limited by sensor resolution, to get really accurate tracking using cameras you need to crunch a LOT of data really quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if it's order's of magnitude less computat…

> I think the Lighthouse system is elegant specifically because it doesn't use cameras at all.

Not to be purposefully pedantic, so please excuse me, but aren't the small "dimples" on the Vive hardware technically very simple, low-res infrared cameras that are designed to pick up the Lighthouse lasers?

Re: Growing Rift Between Valve and Oculus

#102

Post by hbosch »

the_rosentotter wrote: post #33
GauntletWizard wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have both. The Vive gets way more use, for one simple reason. Room scale is the future of VR. Some of the Oculus games are fantastic uses of the technology. Lucky's Tale has the camera on a rail based on where your character is, and EVE: Valkyrie has great mechanics for seated VR. But both of them feel like you're playing a game, albeit an immersive one, whereas room-scale vive games feel like I'm interacting with…

I am sceptical about this. People like to sit down for their entertainment, that is unlikely to change. Turning, swerving, swiveling, sure, but I bet most would quickly get fed up with having to get on their feet and move around in order to play their games.

Sitting down is great for passive entertainment, of which Vive has a lot of. But also, VR is for immersive interaction... and for that, standing up with tracked controllers is not only compelling, it's essential.

Re: Growing Rift Between Valve and Oculus

#103

Post by JoeAltmaier »

zanny wrote: post #100
ohitsdom wrote: post #8

Really cool tech, but kind of a depressing start to this young industry. I feel like desktop apps are making huge strides in being cross-platform, both in attention from developers and the lower development effort required thanks to a myriad of software platforms and tools. It's just sad to see games still clinging to "exclusives" as if that's a positive thing.

The natural progression of all software industries has always been to use proprietary first movers to dominate and control the market with DRM and lockin, burn it down, destroy all consumer and fan engagement, and then slowly flicker out where the corporate goliath that dominated first is eventually supplanted by an open community that should have been there in the first place, but everyone drank the koolaid. Be it w…

Wow sounds positively Marxist. Some imaginary 'natural' progression is not really science, its just a convenient narrative. Anything can happen, including folks abandoning open source and embracing a new walled garden (think iPhone). Don't have to look far at all to see refutation of the convenient storyline.

Re: Growing Rift Between Valve and Oculus

#104

Post by badsock »

hbosch wrote: post #101
errantspark wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to hear you expand on that, perhaps we don't align on the definition of elegant? I think the Lighthouse system is elegant specifically because it doesn't use cameras at all. That's what makes it so cool is that it's not limited by sensor resolution, to get really accurate tracking using cameras you need to crunch a LOT of data really quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if it's order's of magnitude less computat…

> I think the Lighthouse system is elegant specifically because it doesn't use cameras at all. Not to be purposefully pedantic, so please excuse me, but aren't the small "dimples" on the Vive hardware technically very simple, low-res infrared cameras that are designed to pick up the Lighthouse lasers?

They're just simple IR sensors - they can detect when IR is shining on them, but not from which direction. Put another way: each one is the equivalent of a single pixel in a camera sensor.

Position is determined by watching the timing very closely of when each sensor detects the IR sweep, and then doing the math given those timings and the known orientation of the sensors relative to each other.

Re: Growing Rift Between Valve and Oculus

#105

Post by ss248 »

gnarbarian wrote: post #95
ss248 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the case. Iribe just sold everyone out. He made 5 minute (like literally) decision all by himself. Everyone (Palmer, Carmack, Abrash) heard about Facebook acquisition after the deal was already set. It was already to late for them to do anything at that point. It might as well be, that everything they said after was just a part of facebook damage control operation.

I don't think Iribe had the latitude to do that at the time. From what I understand Palmer owned most of the company still at that point. He would have had to get signoff from at least a majority of owners before just doing it.

"Palmer owned most of the company"

Not really. Even before that whole kickstarter campaign he was just a founder.

Roughly, the deal was: Palmer giving full power to Iribe, Iribe helping Palmer with investors/kickstarter.

Re: Growing Rift Between Valve and Oculus

#106

Post by ericjang »

tk32 wrote: post #70
errantspark wrote: post #53

Been working on VR side projects for 3 years now, I've built against the DK1, DK2, CV1 and the Vive and I have to say there's zero question in my mind that Oculus is FAR behind the curve. The Vive was love at first sight, the Oculus was quite the opposite. The Vive is stunning, not only because room-scale VR is fantastic. (I don't share the opinion that the future rests solely with room scale, there's plenty of stuff…

It's so satisfying watching them get their just desserts after betraying their Kickstarter backers by taking the Facebook money and then going back on all their words about keeping the platform free for everybody. Meanwhile that acquisition kicked off a race among the other big players which Valve appears to be winning while having the best features. I mean, Valve isn't perfect, but they're a lot better than Facebook…

I only learned this recently, but it's actually spelled "just deserts".

Although desserts (sweet confections) are often associated with rewards, the word "deserts" refers to the element of distributive justice.

Source: I wrote a paper about this for a class and got a C+.

Re: Growing Rift Between Valve and Oculus

#107

Post by sintaxi »

seanwilson wrote: post #94
pekk wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is grossly deceptive to say that Steam has a monopoly on games distribution when a vast number of the games on Steam are also distributed by other channels. I can't name any "Steam exclusives," which is more than I can say for Origin etc. Frankly it's absurd to psychoanalyze Steam, saying that it wants to do what other companies are doing, and not to recognize that if it wanted to do those things it could easily d…

> It is grossly deceptive to say that Steam has a monopoly on games distribution when a vast number of the games on Steam are also distributed by other channels. This is just from observation without statistics, but I feel once people have a decent number of games on Steam (e.g. from lots of cheap purchases from sales) and no other store, they'd rather stick with Steam instead of installing another store app. Even if…

True, but this would change in an instant if anti-consumer practices were used by Valve.

Re: Growing Rift Between Valve and Oculus

#108

Post by napperjabber »

tk32 wrote: post #70
errantspark wrote: post #53

Been working on VR side projects for 3 years now, I've built against the DK1, DK2, CV1 and the Vive and I have to say there's zero question in my mind that Oculus is FAR behind the curve. The Vive was love at first sight, the Oculus was quite the opposite. The Vive is stunning, not only because room-scale VR is fantastic. (I don't share the opinion that the future rests solely with room scale, there's plenty of stuff…

It's so satisfying watching them get their just desserts after betraying their Kickstarter backers by taking the Facebook money and then going back on all their words about keeping the platform free for everybody. Meanwhile that acquisition kicked off a race among the other big players which Valve appears to be winning while having the best features. I mean, Valve isn't perfect, but they're a lot better than Facebook…

At first I defended the Facebook buyout because it seemed like a logical move. I feel Oculus was pressured into the buyout because valve was about to kill them. Truth is, Carmarck joining the team made it all that much sweeter.

If you read through the lines of some of Palmer's communications, it's obvious that there is a rift between Oculus and Facebook that no one is talking about. Carmarck, being Carmarck keeps pushing even when the top tries to push you down. Reading the tweets, it's obvious that he remains focused on the technology, which is a good sign.

In the end, I think Oculus is facing a backlash because of the buyout, and their 'simular' to Origin approach rings bells of many gamers and how EA continues to alienate them.

Microsoft proved it could compete with the Xbox. Oculus just needs to change its game or get away from its overlord. Blizzard had some fallout with Diablo 3, it happens.

The real question for Oculus, now is, what is your next move?

Re: Growing Rift Between Valve and Oculus

#109

Post by [deleted] »

justratsinacoat wrote: post #89
shasheene wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing worth noting is all Kickstarter backers get a free Oculus CV1 from Facebook (that's of course in addition to the DK1 they received after backing in August 2012). That decision takes away a lot of the "betrayal" of the Facebook acquisition - for backers it's an incredible return on investment (that was unlikely to happen if it weren't for Facebook)

I don't share your conviction that ROI is far more important than any ethical consideration. I seem to recall the KS pitch was full of aspirational language about a democratized future of VR spearheaded by a close-knit team of diehards who wouldn't fall prey to Big Whatever. You're suggesting that the majority of backers will be mollified by an artifact of the very forces that Oculus promised to avoid; I'm sure some…

[deleted]

Re: Growing Rift Between Valve and Oculus

#110

Post by comex »

justratsinacoat wrote: post #89
shasheene wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing worth noting is all Kickstarter backers get a free Oculus CV1 from Facebook (that's of course in addition to the DK1 they received after backing in August 2012). That decision takes away a lot of the "betrayal" of the Facebook acquisition - for backers it's an incredible return on investment (that was unlikely to happen if it weren't for Facebook)

I don't share your conviction that ROI is far more important than any ethical consideration. I seem to recall the KS pitch was full of aspirational language about a democratized future of VR spearheaded by a close-knit team of diehards who wouldn't fall prey to Big Whatever. You're suggesting that the majority of backers will be mollified by an artifact of the very forces that Oculus promised to avoid; I'm sure some…

Not sure you recall correctly. I checked the Kickstarter [1], and I didn't see anything along those lines in the video, the description (which doesn't seem to have been modified, per archive.org), or the first few updates. If Luckey talked about that, I think it was somewhere else.

[1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1523379957/oculus-rift-...

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