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Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

theguardian.com

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Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#101

Post by rudolf0 »

joslin01 wrote: post #74
rudolf0 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds exactly like every time I smoke weed. Including that disappointing expectation of becoming sober and blissfully unaware of my flaws. Have never tried any psychedelics, but some of my bad "trips" with weed (sometimes involving delusions and hallucinations) make me wary.

We all been there with weed, but the root of this behavior lies within yourself. Weed just makes you more sensitive, which can be amazing provided you know how to (1) confront your demons honestly & (2) find an activity you enjoy. Without (1), you'll never get (2) and believe me, as someone who smokes everyday, (1) will come up from time to time when things aren't going well with your life. That's when you gotta smok…

Good point. I can't deny any of that. I just tend not to ever be in a good state, really.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#102

Post by primitivesuave »

stuxnet79 wrote: post #90

Is there any literature in their efficacy in treating anxiety disorders? As somebody who's suffered from severe anxiety since my mid-teens and had it cleared up more or less from medication I'm extremely interested in seeing how Psilocybin would affect the disorder. I would be quite willing to try it out but I'm very hesitant because I suspect my underlying anxiety would undermine the experience and possibly leave me…

Yes, psilocybin will help. An ex-girlfriend of mine had severe anxiety problems after being sexually abused, and one of our earliest memories together was taking 3 grams of Psilocybe Cubensis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybe_cubensis) during a hike to Half Dome in Yosemite. She underwent a transformative experience that day, not only overcoming her anxiety problems but also her fear of snakes (we saw several rattlesnakes at an uncomfortably close distance to us) and her fear of heights/fear of falling. While I wouldn't recommend taking psychedelics in a dangerous situation or during strenuous exercising, taking psychedelics in the right situation can be transformative to those with deeply-rooted mental issues.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#103

Post by bluejellybean »

maxxxxx wrote: post #80
joslin01 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true. I tell all my friends / family if you're going to do mushrooms for the first time, do them with me. I've seen the worst of trips and only my experience in knowing "I'm just high" kept me stable. Newcomers can't call on this experience so readily and will undoubtedly think they're the special exception that is going to die. I also have more advice for newcomer shroomers: one thought can spiral downward or u…

If you ever come to LA let's do it :-) Should add: Would meditation experience help? I feel that my experience helps me dealing with fearful situation. The fear is there but I can watch it and it doesn't define me.

Meditation experience helps a ton! I tell anyone thinking of doing mushrooms/lsd to start meditating for 20 minutes to an hour a day.

Meditating an hour or so before ingesting your substance of choice and then continuing to meditate until you come up helps to ease the stress of going into a trip.. Stress and trips are bad so making that as limited as possible is always good. Set and setting are key here.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#104

Post by omarchowdhury »

rudolf0 wrote: post #101
joslin01 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all been there with weed, but the root of this behavior lies within yourself. Weed just makes you more sensitive, which can be amazing provided you know how to (1) confront your demons honestly & (2) find an activity you enjoy. Without (1), you'll never get (2) and believe me, as someone who smokes everyday, (1) will come up from time to time when things aren't going well with your life. That's when you gotta smok…

Good point. I can't deny any of that. I just tend not to ever be in a good state, really.

We have to get through the mud.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#105

Post by mistermann »

bluejellybean wrote: post #103
maxxxxx wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ever come to LA let's do it :-) Should add: Would meditation experience help? I feel that my experience helps me dealing with fearful situation. The fear is there but I can watch it and it doesn't define me.

Meditation experience helps a ton! I tell anyone thinking of doing mushrooms/lsd to start meditating for 20 minutes to an hour a day. Meditating an hour or so before ingesting your substance of choice and then continuing to meditate until you come up helps to ease the stress of going into a trip.. Stress and trips are bad so making that as limited as possible is always good. Set and setting are key here.

Probably worth pointing out that stress is actually fairly rare (one could think otherwise from your comments). But boy if you encounter it, being pre-prepared for it is a very good idea.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#106

Post by soundwave106 »

jtwebman wrote: post #43

12 people isn't a scientific study! Where is the control group? I think maybe we need a few more studies before people go out and start eating magic mushrooms to not be depressed.

I'm a bit skeptical of just one small study too. From what I am aware, there have been plenty of other 5-HT2A agonists that are not the "classic" psychedelics out there in the labs, and I rarely see them thought of as anti-depressants in Wiki pages etc. (5HT2A agonists being thought of as other treatments? Yes, treatment of migraines and glaucoma have been mentioned in some of the articles -- one example here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AL-34662 -- but a lot of things seem a long way off even there.)

But there's precedent, so who knows. Remember a few years back there was several articles about ketamine being discovered to also helping major depressive disorder? These articles still appear in fact:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/a-one... http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/what-its-like-to-treat-...

From what I am aware, this revelation was a big deal at a deeper level, in that it showed a new pathway to relieving depression -- glutamate. Previously I think almost all anti-depression drugs was based around serotonin. Ketamine on the other hand is an NMDA antagnoist (the NMDA receptor being one of the main binding sites of glutamate) so was completely different than SSRIs.

Hallucinations are honestly considered a "bad side effect" for a clinical anti-depressant, so there has been a fair bit of work in developing drugs that modulate the NMDA receptor / glutamate in a way that relieves major depressive disorder without the psychedelic effects. (http://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/depression/54448) I know that one of them, Rapastinel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapastinel

Has seemed to move rather quickly through the FDA clinical trials, currently phase 3 / FDA fast track.

I suppose you could attempt to gobble ketamine, too, to try to self-medicate your way out of depression. But there are risks with that approach. (Short of waiting for the big pharmaceutical approach, there are "ketamine clinics" which, while definitely "off label" / experimental, are at least a more controlled way of attempting this treatment.)

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#107

Post by BaryonBundle »

fapjacks wrote: post #94
elif wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, a placebo effect would make sense ...to someone that hasn't tripped. The explosion of neurotransmitters can not just be simulated or induced through coercion. There's a chasmic divide between the effects of psilocybin and any mental state you can will consciously or subconsciously. EDIT: unless your hypothesis is that the dissolution of the ego, lack of regard for the conventional, and overwhelming sense of iden…

Right! This made me laugh, the idea of a placebo with magic mushrooms.

This study is attempting to show that psilocybin is effective in treating depression, not effective in inducing a 'trip'. For patients who have never experimented with psychotropics, there may be a placebo effect when they are told they are given a psychotropic substance. While I agree that psilocybin and other similar substances can induce powerful mental states unreachable by other means, it does not follow that there exists a clinical path by which these drug-induced states can be used to treat depression in a reliable way.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#108

Post by bashinator »

ifnaut wrote: post #96

I owe my entire successful career in science and mathematics to repeated use of LSD in my late teens/early 20's. It woke my desire to seek answers to the underlying mechanics of the universe. Before that, I was just a high school drop-out with low self-esteem, no direction, and no positive role models.

I have read that LSD can induce your brain into learning states similar to that of a baby, where new connections (and disconnections?) are able to be formed effortlessly. Given your experience, I wish there were more research being done. It could be another tool to help people overcome trauma or personality disorders.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#109

Post by BaryonBundle »

elif wrote: post #76
apo wrote: post #62

From the study: > A logical next step would be to carry out a placebo controlled randomised trial in which the level of therapist contact is consistent between conditions. http://www.thelancet.com/pb/assets/raw/Lancet/pdfs/S22150366... Depression studies are subject to well-known, powerful placebo effects, rendering this study's conclusions next to useless: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/are-antidepr…

Heh, a placebo effect would make sense ...to someone that hasn't tripped. The explosion of neurotransmitters can not just be simulated or induced through coercion. There's a chasmic divide between the effects of psilocybin and any mental state you can will consciously or subconsciously. EDIT: unless your hypothesis is that the dissolution of the ego, lack of regard for the conventional, and overwhelming sense of iden…

Exactly that, though, the placebo effect of interest would only be induced on people who haven't tripped.

That aside, and of course accepting that states induced by psilocybin and other substances are unobtainable by any other means, you are still nowhere near saying that these same substances can _reliably_ be used to treat depression. Furthermore, this course of treatment also needs to _reliably_ not make depression worse or trigger other types of anxiety that could trigger other medical conditions. Clearly, exactly what a aperson does under the influence of these substances can remarkably impact the results of the studies, so the techniques being used are being judged in these experiments just as much as the substances being used.

One shouldn't be dismissive of these studies, but also one should understand that the techniques used aren't the end-of-the-line in terms of potential these substances may have. on the other side of the token, we must also tread carefully. We must first do no harm!

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#110

Post by soylentcola »

arca_vorago wrote: post #13
theseatoms wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then how exactly did it work for you in your 20s? Did it help you realize that you didn't have problems?

They were probably easier problems at a younger age...

I've had a similar attitude when offered the chance to do psychedelics again (now late 30's, last done early/mid 20's). My unscientific hypothesis, at least in my case, is that much of the anxiety at the idea comes from:

- Everything was more confusing and uncertain back then so it was less of a stretch. With age, I've spent time developing new pathways, habits, and ways of thinking/dealing that I don't take their upheaval lightly.

As a counterpoint, I'd imagine that this is still why they can be useful as well as intimidating. The more set in our ways we get, the less flexible you are during future periods of stress.

- Association of psychedelics with a less certain and more anxious period in my life. I wasn't terribly depressed or anything but looking back...man, those years can be rough and stressful.

I think on some level I can only guess at, the desire to seek new thought patterns and perspectives feels both less appealing and less necessary. Additionally, it carries feelings and associations with the upending of a hard-won equilibrium (or at least relative stability). Not something I take lightly.

Now, that said, I'm pretty sure a mild trip would be enjoyable and I'd probably be fine doing it if the time/place was right. One thing I still stick by: the intense psychedelic journey clearly holds power and appeal for some, but there's really nothing wrong with a mild trip.

I never understood friends who would eat a strip of blotter or a bag of shrooms each. Sure, you get "totally fucked up, dude" but I personally enjoyed feeling like everything just felt a bit novel and looked a bit off rather than not being able to tell where I was at a given time.

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