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Beijing is Silicon Valley's only true competitor

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Re: Beijing is Silicon Valley's only true competitor

#101

Post by amelius »

api wrote: post #8
supster wrote: post #4

It must help Chinese startups that many SV companies are blocked from competing in China. For example no competition from Facebook, Messenger, Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, Youtube, Gmail, Dropbox, Vimeo, SoundCloud... more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Websites_blocked_in_mainland_C...

I've been told that the great firewall is actually more about protectionism than censorship. They know they can't really contain information, but they can block or degrade foreign services to favor their own. Of course this does serve a state censorship and surveillance agenda indirectly since home grown services can be more easily controlled. As much as I can't stand Trump and could never vote for him, I do think he…

> The WTO limits tariffs but the Chinese have found tons of indirect ways to implement protectionism: the great firewall, manipulating their currency, making it hard for US firms to take payments in China, etc.

On the other hand, the west has profited quite a bit from the underdevelopment of China in the past. So I can't really blame them.

Re: Beijing is Silicon Valley's only true competitor

#102

Post by uola »

seanp2k2 wrote: post #75
uola wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe has done pretty much everything the US wants, from spying on our citizens to foreign companies paying little to no tax. All you hear these days is how lame Europe is because we don't have a Facebook and how we should all move to the overpriced small town of SV. China doesn't only have a Facebook, it has a Google, an Amazon and an Uber. Which are in many ways surpassing their US counterparts. Since when was tra…

Agreed that it's overpriced in terms of real estate, but I wouldn't call it small; the Bay Area is home to over 7 million: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Bay_Area The weather is also pretty nice in the South Bay (over 300 days of sunshine according to Wikipedia for San Jose). San Francisco technically gets a lot of sun, but anecdotally they get a lot of fog and shade as well, especially in certain area…

What can I say, Facebooks new headquarters:

https://www.instagram.com/p/05d5kiF_8X/

Tencents (wechat) new headquarters:

http://www.kikiwangarch.com/tencent-hq/

Re: Beijing is Silicon Valley's only true competitor

#103

Post by argonaut »

sangnoir wrote: post #87
argonaut wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll just repeat my extremely short comment: > pointing out examples of a nation engaging in protectionism contributes little to the discussion unless you compare it to other nations.

I thought the implicit comparison to any country was obvious and well known - maybe not to Americans[1]. Can you think of any country that practices protectionism on agriculture at the same level as the US? 1. I would have thought post-"corn-syrup-gate" more Americans would at least know corn is heavily subsidized.

To make a good point, you also need to show that China doesn't have agricultural subsidies.

5 seconds of Google searching reveals a long lists of results:

https://www.google.com/#q=chinese+agricultural+subsidies

http://www.economist.com/news/china/21651272-others-cut-farm...

Agricultural subsidies are really not going to support your point. Most countries have heavy agricultural subsidies.

Re: Beijing is Silicon Valley's only true competitor

#104

Post by argonaut »

chw9e wrote: post #76
argonaut wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. You're conveniently ignoring the fact that Google did self-censor from 2005 to 2009. So the idea that it's "too expensive" being the reason is just FUD. Unsubstantiated speculation. 2. The question about whether or not Facebook/Google will succeed today is more misdirection. The real question is whether Google would have succeeded 11 years ago, and whether Facebook would have succeeded 7-8 years ago, because that'…

I don't think that fact disputes my argument. Let's consider a few assumptions to try to see a more well-rounded view of the firewall problem. Consider for a moment that all domestic firms must comply with self-censorship or be forced offline (see Papi Jiang's recent problems with cursing in her programming and being forced offline). From this we can assume that censorship issues are not only an issue for foreign fir…

> From this we can assume that censorship issues are not only an issue for foreign firms, but also a primary concern for domestic companies

This does not follow from the previous statement. Also, it doesn't refute the reality that Google was fine with self-censoring between 2005 to 2009. The self-censorship system was already implemented (because, you know, they were already self-censoring).

Re: Beijing is Silicon Valley's only true competitor

#105

Post by djfergus »

tluyben2 wrote: post #81
uola wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe has done pretty much everything the US wants, from spying on our citizens to foreign companies paying little to no tax. All you hear these days is how lame Europe is because we don't have a Facebook and how we should all move to the overpriced small town of SV. China doesn't only have a Facebook, it has a Google, an Amazon and an Uber. Which are in many ways surpassing their US counterparts. Since when was tra…

They have a Google in terms of making money, they don't have a Google in terms of usefulness. The search engines in China are unusable; my Chinese colleagues are far less efficient than we are because of it. When i'm sitting next to them with my SSH lynx to Google, I find answers fast which they cannot. Baidu is just only bought links (inherently bad quality) and Bing is, well, just a really bad search engine. That's…

Thanks for the interesting observations. No surprises.

In my experience, wechat is a spam monster - too many useless notifications and missing useful features like easy OTT voice calls and read receipts. I find iMessage and whatsapp (I use both hourly) vastly superior.

How old is your uber/didi experience? I find both now to be mostly useless to non-chinese. I tried to get an uber to the airport in Beijing last week and would you believe there is no POI in english for "airport". Search comes up empty. This seems recent, it wasn't an issue last year when I was travelling there frequently. I agree, if you do get a valid destination the uberx drivers have enough english to find you and get you where you are going. People's uber on the other hand... its good for entertainment...

Re: Beijing is Silicon Valley's only true competitor

#106

Post by golergka »

gbog wrote: post #93
golergka wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Farm subsidies is not only about business, it's about national security: you subside food industry so that when you suddenly find yourself in the big war with trade routes cut, your population doesn't starve. I'm not saying that these subsidies are necessary; I'm just saying that they should be analyzed with a different framework.

That's true but even more so when applied to the computer network. Nowadays, in case of a war, closing emails or zombying all Windows pcs could do more harm than food supplies.

And that's why for countries who aren't US closest allies it makes total sense to base military infrastructure on open-source operating systems and software (because let's be honest, Russian or Chinese military most likely won't be able to produce their own modern OS of comparable quality from scratch).

However, software and hardware on one hard, and internet on another, aren't the same thing: I don't see how one can seriously make the same argument in favor of great chinese firewall. It's only effective against general population, and doesn't seriously negate any cyber-threats, as far as I understand.

Re: Beijing is Silicon Valley's only true competitor

#107

Post by GunboatDiplomat »

bnegreve wrote: post #55
api wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been told that the great firewall is actually more about protectionism than censorship. They know they can't really contain information, but they can block or degrade foreign services to favor their own. Of course this does serve a state censorship and surveillance agenda indirectly since home grown services can be more easily controlled. As much as I can't stand Trump and could never vote for him, I do think he…

Interesting point, but to be fair China is not the only one to find ways to implement protectionism. The F35 program or even Nasa contracting SpaceX could be seen as examples of the US implementing some level of protectionism.

They could be, but I'd say that wanting to produce your own fighters (especially for a large military like ours) is reasonable. We're not complaining that the Chinese don't want to buy the F-35.

Isn't SpaceX substantially cheaper than any other alternative at this point?

Re: Beijing is Silicon Valley's only true competitor

#108

Post by jfoster »

supster wrote: post #4

It must help Chinese startups that many SV companies are blocked from competing in China. For example no competition from Facebook, Messenger, Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, Youtube, Gmail, Dropbox, Vimeo, SoundCloud... more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Websites_blocked_in_mainland_C...

Absolutely.

Corollary: When running a country, protectionism of tech businesses can really pay off if your population is large enough.

Should every country follow Beijing's example? I'm not sure it leads to a good outcome globally, but on a per-country basis it seems like countries with large populations do have something to gain by acting selfishly.

Re: Beijing is Silicon Valley's only true competitor

#109

Post by jgalt212 »

I know this may sound flip, but as far as innovation goes the Chinese* have not invented anything since gunpowder. Of course SV, is much more than just innovation: it's access to financing and technical and sales talent. Along these dimensions, Beijing may represent a competitive threat.

*only those based in China. Chinese people freed from strictures of autocracy, colonialism, communism, and kleptocracy have made great innovations.

Re: Beijing is Silicon Valley's only true competitor

#110

Post by tluyben2 »

djfergus wrote: post #105
tluyben2 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have a Google in terms of making money, they don't have a Google in terms of usefulness. The search engines in China are unusable; my Chinese colleagues are far less efficient than we are because of it. When i'm sitting next to them with my SSH lynx to Google, I find answers fast which they cannot. Baidu is just only bought links (inherently bad quality) and Bing is, well, just a really bad search engine. That's…

Thanks for the interesting observations. No surprises. In my experience, wechat is a spam monster - too many useless notifications and missing useful features like easy OTT voice calls and read receipts. I find iMessage and whatsapp (I use both hourly) vastly superior. How old is your uber/didi experience? I find both now to be mostly useless to non-chinese. I tried to get an uber to the airport in Beijing last week…

This was a few weeks ago. It is worse than last year but I use a lot of mapping apps to figure out which characters to use. If that does not help me I usually just ask someone on the street.
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