I'm looking forward to the day when the other half of the world gets "on the grid" so to speak. The rise of other economies will greatly benefit humanity as a whole.
Great experiment. Very excited to see where this goes.
GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa
101–110 of 218 posts
Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the idea is that a UBI would increase the cost of labor by removing some people and some motivations from the work force and thus forcing a higher level of competition between employers. Increasing the cost of labor increases the incentive for automation to remove the need for the labor.
> I think the idea is that a UBI would increase the cost of labor Different UBI proponents (which come from across the left-right spectrum) have different ideas, but none of them that I've heard from has favored UBI for the purpose of increasing the cost of labor generally. Especially on the right, but also usually on the left as well, reducing the disincentive to work inherent in means-tested social benefit programs…
> favored UBI for the purpose of increasing the cost of labor generally
But is this still an effect which needs to be considered? I can only see it increasing the cost of labor if people are only willing to work for the luxuries they desire and no longer for the basic living expenses.
By what other means would it encourage automation at all? Or is that not an intention or benefit at all?
Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa
#103While I find UBI to be a fascinating idea worthy of consideration, I vehemently disagree with running this experiment in East Africa. The proposal seems to either be blind-to or minimizing the potential for unintended consequences. Decades of trying to alleviate poverty in Africa have taught us, more than anything else, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Giving food tends to act as “dumping” and wea…
When people in Haiti receive bags of USAID Rice (grown elsewhere) for free, there no longer is a need for Haitian Grown Rice and it hurts local farmers. I'm not sure this translates to direct injections of cash however. I've spent time in East Africa and everyone always asks, what does Africa 'need.' I typically say: money. There are lots of great ideas and lots of enterprising people at all social levels of the region, but the one thing between everyone and further development is personal income. There are roads being built by China, Water is the next big infrastructure requirement, but as for the average person in East Africa, an injection of steady cash is world changing. The only way the plan becomes toxic is if the guaranteed income ever goes away, which is an admittedly massive qualifier, but if a plan can be devised to incorporate money management resources and nationwide healthy spending mindsets, and the plan can be supported indefinitely, it has the potential to radically change the day to day experience of many people in the region.
Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
Money is not wealth - it is debt. That's what the fundamental purpose of money is: instead of trading your stuff for other things, you trade it for a certain value of things at an unspecified later time. With this perspective, there's no distinction between micro and macro contexts for money. It's all a unit of account for how the economic output of a society gets distributed. Transferring money from one group to ano…
So let's say you give 1 bar of gold each to a group of 50 year olds, and 1 gold bar each to a group of 12 year olds. Each group is now equally wealthy and could each produce a cathedral of the same quality?
No, because money is not wealth. Owning money is equivalent to being considered to be owed something by society at large. Each group is roughly equally capable of trading that debt for the real goods and services they wish to receive in order to consider society's obligation satisfied. They're going to get different things, of course, but that's a side issue.
Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa
#105While I find UBI to be a fascinating idea worthy of consideration, I vehemently disagree with running this experiment in East Africa. The proposal seems to either be blind-to or minimizing the potential for unintended consequences. Decades of trying to alleviate poverty in Africa have taught us, more than anything else, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Giving food tends to act as “dumping” and wea…
So, we do all the colonial stuff you mentioned (and plenty more you could have mentioned), and then when someone suggests we provide Universal Basic Income in that same region, we suddenly get a "conscience" about it and say no way, it might go wrong? I'd have to say, that sounds a little off, to me.
Right, because using Africans as a guinea pig for an unproven economic system isn't colonialist at all.
Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa
#106While I find UBI to be a fascinating idea worthy of consideration, I vehemently disagree with running this experiment in East Africa. The proposal seems to either be blind-to or minimizing the potential for unintended consequences. Decades of trying to alleviate poverty in Africa have taught us, more than anything else, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Giving food tends to act as “dumping” and wea…
> Who knows what unintended side effects of UBI will be? Care to make a guess?
Increases in the prices of goods in a 1:1 fashion with income, especially staples? Creating a dominate telco market where having a phone is necessary (and therefore phone prices will be disproportionately higher?)? These are just some reasonable non-catastrophist concerns, which I'm sure there are a number of.
Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa
#107While I find UBI to be a fascinating idea worthy of consideration, I vehemently disagree with running this experiment in East Africa. The proposal seems to either be blind-to or minimizing the potential for unintended consequences. Decades of trying to alleviate poverty in Africa have taught us, more than anything else, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Giving food tends to act as “dumping” and wea…
This seems to be an argument against operating any charities at all in East Africa. That must be controversial?
Really, throughout the literature it's not that controversial. Doing any amount of research on aid in SSA you see nearly 100% of efforts go poorly in the long term. Most arguments in the other direction have very 'interesting' definitions of success or argue a moral imperative.
Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa
#108[deleted]
Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
It could certainly spell doom for future UBI proposals if the first prominent implementation goes badly, and it could be that it went badly due to factors that are simply not as prevalent in the West.
I think UBI will fare way worse int the West because of how many people rent places to live. UBI will get mostly sucked by landlords.
How about Eastern Europe? There are some extremely poor, yet relatively educated countries, and due to the Soviet legacy, the majority owns the places they live in.
Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa
#110While I find UBI to be a fascinating idea worthy of consideration, I vehemently disagree with running this experiment in East Africa. The proposal seems to either be blind-to or minimizing the potential for unintended consequences. Decades of trying to alleviate poverty in Africa have taught us, more than anything else, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Giving food tends to act as “dumping” and wea…
I don't know how much worse East Africa is compared to other parts of sub-Saharan Africa, but Namibia has enacted basic income before with positive results. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_around_the_world#... But then again, it was the country's own government, not some outside NGO.
"it was mainly funded by a German Protestant church, by individual contributions of German and Namibian citizens and by contributions of the German Ministry for Cooperation. The amount paid out per head was N$100 (around US$12)."
-from your link