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A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

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Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#101

Post by nine_k »

NhanH wrote: post #10
amelius wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering about one thing: if everybody has a basic income, then who will be doing the dirty jobs like collecting our waste? Will the price for waste collecting go up? And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the…

> And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the dirty jobs? In the long run, any menial task is supposed to be automated away completely. In short term, what you described already happened in area like Post-doc and game indu…

I don't think plumbing or even waste collection is going to be seriously automated any time soon.

Can you imagine what kind of autonomous robot would it take to be able to do regular plumbing work, in cramped spaces, with low visibility, requiring relatively significant physical efforts? The software side of it can definitely be solved (though not easy at all). The hardware side would require significant breakthroughs, if the device is going to be cost-effective even compared to a highly-paid certified plumber.

Same applies to electricians, and in certain degree to car mechanics, too. We have large swaths of infrastructure built with maintenance by humans in mind. These humans are not exactly easy to replace with robots.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#102

Post by pjc50 »

_Understated_ wrote: post #89
yks wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is the point, there will be too many people "that can't work" due to tech innovations. It all makes sense if you think about welfare not as "these slouches are rewarded for the laziness" but as a price you pay so that unemployed people are not forced into violent property expropriation from you. When large swaths of population don't have an access to money-making jobs, it significantly affects middle cla…

I don't think anyone wants a Sci-Fi dystopia: It doesn't benefit anyone. Government should provide every citizen with basics should they falter: Food, clothing, shelter, education etc. I absolutely believe that is a basic human right. What I don't want is to fund anything other than a safety net: Welfare should be a helping hand to get you back on your feet or to give you a start - Nothing more. It should also come w…

> Government should provide every citizen with basics should they falter: Food, clothing, shelter, education etc. I absolutely believe that is a basic human right.

> What I don't want is to fund anything other than a safety net: Welfare should be a helping hand to get you back on your feet or to give you a start - Nothing more. It should also come with an expiry date!

These two statements completely contradict one another. There are plenty of people who aren't going back on their feed any time soon due to disability or mental health issues.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#103

Post by AlisdairO »

empressplay wrote: post #60
panic wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimum-wage jobs would by necessity then need to pay more That's the opposite of what's being proposed: the minimum income comes from the government, not employers. Minimum income can replace minimum wage. For example, say I'm a landlord. If everyone all of a sudden had an additional "base" income, why wouldn't I increase my rents to absorb at least a portion of that? Then, only people who had a job would still be a…

This would only work in places where supply exceeded demand. In a landlords' market there is no reason to compete. All the same people who could afford to rent from you before can still afford to rent from you now, you're just charging them more.

Basic income could have the effect of flattening out demand rather - at the moment, people are forced to cluster close to where the work is available. If I want to just live on basic income, why not go somewhere more affordable?

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#104

Post by _Understated_ »

gjm11 wrote: post #74
_Understated_ wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely agree but my biggest fear is that socialists don't give a shit and will push "progressive taxes". I live in Scotland and they love the fact that they can raise taxes here now... they openly talk about it and very few people I know bat an eyelid! But it's the curse of socialism imo: As long as you tax people earning more than me then I am fine with it. Sadly, something I have heard too often Edit: Spellin…

There are some sorts of political proposal it's reasonable to be shocked at people talking openly about. For me, they're things like: Reintroducing slavery. Switching to communism. Putting people in prison for having the wrong religion. Expelling all black people from the country. ... Do I understand correctly that you consider raising taxes to be in this category?

I absolutely don't believe they are in the same category: How the hell did you equate them?

Who honestly wants to pay more tax? Really? I ask you in all seriousness.

I am well-off but up until recently I earned enough to keep my head above water. I had a disposable income after all bills were paid of around £100 a month: One burst tyre in my car and that was it but I had no debt (apart from my mortgage) as I lived within my means.

I work hard, I get up early and study and so on and I am a contractor now, earning good money.

That being said: I have no issue with taxation. I believe in taxation but I do not believe in constantly increasing it nor do I believe that it is a moral issue like it has been made recently.

For as long as I can remember, no Government has decreased taxes in the UK. None. They shuffle them around but they never decrease them.

I read something a year or so ago (can't remember the reference, maybe Taxpayers Alliance) that showed over 60% of my money is taxed now through income tax, stealth taxes etc.

Enough is enough!

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#105

Post by chongli »

amelius wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering about one thing: if everybody has a basic income, then who will be doing the dirty jobs like collecting our waste? Will the price for waste collecting go up? And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the…

Tons of people already do some of the dirtiest jobs around for free. One example is caring for severely disabled and/or elderly people. Sure, there are facilities for these people where workers get paid to care for them but many rely on family members to care for them without any financial compensation.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#106

Post by [deleted] »

empressplay wrote: post #100
panic wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a monopoly on the only five apples in the world, why were you charging only $2 in the first place? In a competitive economy, somebody else will be happy to sell an apple to the last person.

In practice that's not true and I suggest you research the amount of fruit that's left to rot in fields because companies decide it's not worth selling it.

[deleted]

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#107

Post by mtbcoder »

gonzo41 wrote: post #21
amelius wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering about one thing: if everybody has a basic income, then who will be doing the dirty jobs like collecting our waste? Will the price for waste collecting go up? And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the…

People join the military for reasons other than money. Become doctors and emergency services etc all for reasons that are not related to money. People will do the things they do, but having some money means that people can take risks and feel safe in society. It removes the hard floor.

> It removes the hard floor.

In the US, we could already make great strides with removing the hard floor by simply implementing universal, primary health care coverage, free/low-cost higher education and wages that keep up with inflation. I feel that BI in some form is inevitable and the next logical step of civilized society, however, given the incredible resistance to providing universal health care, I do not see BI happening in my lifetime.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#108

Post by chongli »

empressplay wrote: post #53
gaius wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basic income will provide only the basics - if you want luxuries, you will still need a job.

I'm not convinced it will even provide the basics. There would be nothing to stop rents / real-estate prices from going up to compensate. Or food, or utilities. It's simple supply and demand.

Basic income would not significantly increase the demand for food or accommodation. How does "simple supply and demand" work in this case?

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#109

Post by sergiosgc »

empressplay wrote: post #48
rlpb wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the market rate for dirty jobs goes up, will the basic income be enough, or will I struggle to pay for my waste collection (and everything else) on the basic income alone?

Which is a good point. Ultimately all costs get passed on to the consumer -- so where does it end?

It ends when the cost is so high that automation becomes cost-effective. Basic Income, as much as minimum wage, is a collective push towards skilled labor, away from menial tasks.

In general terms, UBI seems sane. I see two implementation problems. First, worldwide society competition: Can my society support UBI and compete with China? Second, automatic system balancing. What is the correct UBI level? Can we leave it out to be hashed by politicians?

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#110

Post by ww520 »

amelius wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering about one thing: if everybody has a basic income, then who will be doing the dirty jobs like collecting our waste? Will the price for waste collecting go up? And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the…

If no one does dirty jobs, their price goes up until it's worthwhile for someone to do them (think of Uber surge). Basic supply and demand.

More costly dirty jobs encourage automation and they will be automated away. The trend has started long ago. It used to take 3 people per garbage truck to collect trash, one driver and 2 people physically pick up the trash cans. Then it was 2 as better trucks came along. Now it's one driver per truck, as the truck has mechanical arms to collect the trash.

With driverless trucks in the horizon, it is not far fetch to have one driver overseeing 2 to a small fleet driverless trucks to collect garbage on a street in parallel.

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