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Unmasking the Men Behind Zero Hedge

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Re: Unmasking the Men Behind Zero Hedge

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zero Hedge is NOT a conspiracy site. I don't know why you make that claim except that, once you did, many other posts on this forum followed suit. In all honesty your claim (that zerohedge is a conspiracy site) and the ensuing posts looks more like conspiracy (blog-spamming or blog-misdirection) than does zerohedge. zerohedge WAS once a decent current economics site that sometimes featured excellent articles but the…

I disagree. I don't have an interest in digging through ZH posts to prove my point, but in general the spin of the site is conspiratorial in nature. Whether it's the Fed is in it with the banks to provide free money to prop up the market, or the BLS number are not to be believed or trusted, or any other number of reoccurring themes, ZH is a conspiracy site.

Are you saying banks are not supported by the Fed and that the Fed does not provide 'free money' to banks?

Re: Unmasking the Men Behind Zero Hedge

#102
post #16

I stopped reading this site some years ago. It had, and probably still has some interesting opinins and analysis. Most content is pretty far fetched / sensationalist, but if you have your grain of salt, this is not a problem, since most media outlets do this in one form or another. About 2 years ago the tenor of the publications shifted from libertarian to more and more reactionary (bordering on proto-fascist). When…

[deleted]

Re: Unmasking the Men Behind Zero Hedge

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zero Hedge is NOT a conspiracy site. I don't know why you make that claim except that, once you did, many other posts on this forum followed suit. In all honesty your claim (that zerohedge is a conspiracy site) and the ensuing posts looks more like conspiracy (blog-spamming or blog-misdirection) than does zerohedge. zerohedge WAS once a decent current economics site that sometimes featured excellent articles but the…

I disagree. I don't have an interest in digging through ZH posts to prove my point, but in general the spin of the site is conspiratorial in nature. Whether it's the Fed is in it with the banks to provide free money to prop up the market, or the BLS number are not to be believed or trusted, or any other number of reoccurring themes, ZH is a conspiracy site.

BLS numbers are routinely revised in retrospect to be worse a quarter or two later and with a friday release so that no one notices. As in, more than one in two BLS unemployment reports is retroactively revised, and I don't remember a single "it's actually better than we previously reported" revision.

tptacek (IIRC quoting someone else) described it well: ZeroHedge is the conspiracy theory site without the conspiracies. Ignore the tone, take the analysis with a lot of salt, but do look at the data - they bring to the front a lot of data that no mainstream publication will show.

There are two things wrong with the common view of conspiracies:

1. That it is impossible or at least, extremely unlikely, for a group of people to meet in private and make plans to further their own agenda at the expense of others -- that's all a "conspiracy" is. It happens thousands of times per day at any scale of operations.

2. That you actually need conspirators for a conspiracy-equivalent effect to take hold. Do you remember the option backdating scandal? Turns out tens of companies did the same thing. Hundreds involved was aware, no one talked, until an outsider forced the SEC to respond. This doesn't need to be centrally orchestrated. Whether or not you consider this "a conspiracy" or not, doesn't matter. It was effectively a conspiracy against shareholders. Similarly, there's the still unfolding emission scandal which is (effectively) yet another large scale conspiracy, whether or not Mitsubishi and Volkswagen engineers met in a shady bar to co-ordinate their cheating or not.

Re: Unmasking the Men Behind Zero Hedge

#104
Like many here, I've read ZeroHedge for a few years. I loosely agree with the analysis that the tone has become "conspiratorial," but this argument fails to disambiguate between a "conspiratorial" tone and the intentionally provocative rhetoric of the ZeroHedge authors. They KNOW their content falls under all those labels so derisively ascribed to it, because that is their intention.

My reading of the [conspiratorial|far-fetched|proto-facist] content on ZeroHedge is that it's not meant to be literal, but a veneer of SHOCK VALUE that serves two purposes. First, it gets readership due to classic clickbait psychology. Second, its mere existence demonstrably proves ZeroHedge is an "alternative" media site undiluted by editorial filters. This distinguishes it from every mainstream media publication, and that alone makes it worth reading (provided you can find some signal worth your time).

The shock value signals to astute readers that ZeroHedge is not a traditional site, and that yes, you SHOULD take everything they say with a grain of salt. But the logical jump from "you should take it with a grain of salt" to "you should ignore it" misses the simple fact that its writers INTEND for the content to be provocative. They WANT you to take it with a grain of salt.

Taking things "with a grain of salt" is GOOD for you. It means you are THINKING CRITICALLY. People should be taking everything with a grain of salt. What alarms me most about ZeroHedge is not its content, but the attempted ostracizing of that content by other publications, as if the shock value justifies ignoring it all together. Incidentally, this is the same smear tactic that mainstream media sites are applying to Donald Trump: he says we find offensive, therefore he says must be invalid. If we applied this logic to all information, there would be no difference of opinion in the world.

To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, the person yelling "fire" might be the one worth listening to, and we should always question our own beliefs and fear consensus. To quote him directly, they [0] were "the ones shouting fire when there really was a fire in a very crowded theatre indeed... [W]ho’s going to decide?" [1] [2]

[0] "They" were the socialist party of philadelphia, who opposed the draft of WWI, "on the grounds that military conscription constituted involuntary servitude, which is prohibited by the Thirteenth Amendment.": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Hg-Y7MugU (thanks to HN commenter in another thread for linking to this today)

[2] http://documents.ariadacapo.net/borrowed/2006_11_christopher...

Re: Unmasking the Men Behind Zero Hedge

#105
post #16

I stopped reading this site some years ago. It had, and probably still has some interesting opinins and analysis. Most content is pretty far fetched / sensationalist, but if you have your grain of salt, this is not a problem, since most media outlets do this in one form or another. About 2 years ago the tenor of the publications shifted from libertarian to more and more reactionary (bordering on proto-fascist). When…

This is a common trend among more ardent libertarians. I think it's due to a lot of libertarian predictions about the post-recession stimulus not coming true.

I know, I was one of those libertarians who though Obama was going to usher in a period of high inflation-driven growth. I was completely, absolutely, and astoundingly wrong.

My response was to update my beliefs, but some people's response to their theories being proven incorrect by reality is to become rigidly authoritarian.

"If reality doesn't conform to my worldview, I will make it conform!"

Remember the Communists, like modern libertarians, originally had a stateless society as their goal.

I think this is what happened with ZH and many other libertarian leaning sites.

Re: Unmasking the Men Behind Zero Hedge

#106
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think that the authors have no problem with authoritarianism Like any conspiracy site, it's going to attract people who share a view of the world in which everything must be orchestrated, controlled - a reason for all things. Randomness has no place in the mind of a conspiracy theorist. The order provided by conspiracies comfort the conspiracy theorist: paradoxically making the world feel safer, more ordered while…

So, all people who were saying that NSA is spying on the whole internet (before Snowden, that was the conspiracy) were secretly authoritarian?!

I would say "secretly theist" rather than "secretly authoritarian". I can see a strong parallel between conspiracist and theist beliefs, in that the mundane world is an illusion, lie or trap beyond which a metaphysical world exists full of hidden truths and malevolent beings who conspire to control everything behind the scenes, of which most people are completely unaware. Conspiracy theorists merely replace a supernatural demiurge with a political one.

I think one of the compelling aspects of conspiracy theory as an expression of faith, is that it's comforting to realize that even if the world is run by a dark and malevolent agenda, at least it has an agenda, and someone or something is in control.

One can see this expression of conspiracy as religion here on Hacker News. Whenever a skeptical statement is made about some conspiracy theory, someone will inevitably state that because Edward Snowden was proven right, conspiracy X should be considered true. Or, because people considered the things Edward Snowden described were once considered "conspiracy theory", one should accept that conspiracy theorists are enlightened about the true nature of the world.

Rationally, this argument makes little sense as one conspiracy theory being true doesn't validate the truth of another, but such statements are made in the context of religion all the time, as expressions of faith.

Re: Unmasking the Men Behind Zero Hedge

#107

ZH's response: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-04-29/full-story-behind-b...

They show their web traffic towards the end which seems to point to 1.5-2mm daily users. I don't really have too much context for such numbers. But it seems like it was enough to pay their disgruntled writer $100k+ per year.

Re: Unmasking the Men Behind Zero Hedge

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think that the authors have no problem with authoritarianism Like any conspiracy site, it's going to attract people who share a view of the world in which everything must be orchestrated, controlled - a reason for all things. Randomness has no place in the mind of a conspiracy theorist. The order provided by conspiracies comfort the conspiracy theorist: paradoxically making the world feel safer, more ordered while…

What's sad is no matter how often people like you are proven wrong you'll just keep on repeating the same bullshit. I recall HN saying gold market manipulation was conspiracy theory, ZH was right HN commenters were wrong. There's a long list but when it comes to finance HN commenters are typically poorly educated.

I'm with you as far as the level of finance knowledge on these boards. It's not surprising coming from a world where actually making money in your business is an afterthought.

That said, regarding ZH and "gold manipulation": what's exhausting is their claim of the magnitude of the effects, as if precious metals prices would suddenly fly through the roof. For example, when some of the big silver banks were busted for price fixing--a story that ZH covered extensively-- what happened? No visible effect on silver prices. So, the conclusion drawn is that there must a bigger conspiracy.

I'm with some of the other commenters here. ZH is on the bleeding edge of financial news, but you have to untangle it from the hyperventilating. And the comment section is a cesspool.

Re: Unmasking the Men Behind Zero Hedge

#109
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is shock value, it is because ZH focuses on facts (yes, they are usually well documented facts), which the so called mainstream media chooses to ignore, because the narrative does not suit their corporate owners. Most of ZH's reporting is backed by numbers coming from other sources. They also report rumors ahead of everyone else, which seem implausible, but later turn out to be facts and reported by other ou…

"ZH focuses on facts". Seriously? >They also report rumors ahead of everyone else, which seem implausible, but later turn out to be facts ... Sure, if you spitting out rumors all day there will be one or two cases per year where you hit a nail.

> "ZH focuses on facts". Seriously?

Seriously, they do. They spin them in weird ways, though - I remember in 2007 (or early 2008), they had an article about "the bin laden trade" - someone bet $30M or so on a very improbably collapse -- Or so the article inferred based on highly irregular "put" purchase -- losing $30M if that didn't happen, or winning billions if it did.

The data was, in fact, factual. However, they failed to account for alternative explanations, e.g. that someone (probably a pension fund or a hedge fund) was moving a lot of money into the market, and was buying insurance -- a much more likely explanation for the same data.

They do stick to facts. It's their analysis that you should reserve your skepticism to.

Re: Unmasking the Men Behind Zero Hedge

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's sad is no matter how often people like you are proven wrong you'll just keep on repeating the same bullshit. I recall HN saying gold market manipulation was conspiracy theory, ZH was right HN commenters were wrong. There's a long list but when it comes to finance HN commenters are typically poorly educated.

Typical childish behavior, down vote criticism, ignore the facts.

Rule #1 do not complain about down-votes, if you mind too much about them you will get gun-shy or putting filter. I have enough down votes but it still stings a bit, once past the initial sting, you will realize that people are politically and ideologically vested, irrespective of left or right, they will piss on your parade if you shake their world view and honestly, I may be one of them.

Say what you want to say respectfully and do not worry about votes.

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