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Diabetes: can you really eat to beat it?

theguardian.com

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Re: Diabetes: can you really eat to beat it?

#101

Post by wdewind »

_0w8t wrote: post #97
wdewind wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/saturated-fat-healthy/ This is a nice digest of a lot of the science around fats, that while somewhat biased, is a pretty good summary and includes links to studies should you want to dig deeper.

That mostly defends high-fat/low-carbo diet. What I am looking for is where exactly should one put boundaries. For example, if both high-fat/low-carbo and very-high-carbo/no-fat are good, can one combine them? If one eats very high fat meal, how long one has to wait before eating carbos-without-fat? Is it just few hours? Or should it be 16 hours? Or should one just not do that?

I think those are great questions and anyone who gives you a confident answer on them is kind of full of shit. The bottom line is nutrition is just not that well understood scientifically, and since there is so much evidence emerging showing people reacting pretty differently to the same dietary inputs I think it's that much harder to answer nutritional questions that precisely and build nutritional models that work broadly.

Re: Diabetes: can you really eat to beat it?

#102

Post by _0w8t »

wdewind wrote: post #84
_0w8t wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you recommend some useful links about this? In particular it is interesting to know if there is some range with fat/carbo ratio when the result is particularly bad.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/saturated-fat-healthy/ This is a nice digest of a lot of the science around fats, that while somewhat biased, is a pretty good summary and includes links to studies should you want to dig deeper.

https://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in-defense-of-low-fat-a-ca...

is more closer to what I was looking.

Re: Diabetes: can you really eat to beat it?

#103

Post by mchmch »

wdewind wrote: post #96
mchmch wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't trust your health to people selling Paelo diet t-shirts, books, and diet bars... A high fat diet will kill you in the long term. Idea: Call 10 cardiologists, ask them if you should increase your fat consumption... then call 10,000 more and hear the same thing. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fat+causes+diab...

I totally agree, which I why I encourage you to read the numerous studies linked in the post. Note that you've basically said: don't trust your bullshit experts, trust this random youtube search. I'm asking you to read the bullshit expert's digestion of the science, and then read the science, and then tell me where the bullshit expert has gotten it wrong. I totally agree that the nutritional "science" community is fi…

Here is a simple way to see the results for yourself.

1)Spend 30 days eating paleo.

2)Monitor your blood pressure, energy levels, bowel movements, sleep quality

3)Get a fasting glucose test and complete blood lipid profile including HDL/LDL. Research how to read it or ask your dr to interpret the results.

4)Do the same for a very low fat diet (about 10% total calories from fat)

Prediction: You will notice the difference in your body and your energy levels. Your Dr will like the results of the low fat diet much better. (Spoiler: I went through a Paelo/Crossfit phase too so I have already tried this and I personally know many others who have so it is fairly easy to predict what will happen. )

This is the last comment that I will make... I don't want to offend anybody. Rather, I hope somebody finds this useful and starts on a path to being much healthier...

Remember: Fat+Carbs, not just carbs, causes insulin resistance and leads to type 2 diabetes. If you eliminate the fat your diabetes will improve. If you eliminate the carbs your diabetes will also improve... but you will reduce your energy levels by forcing your body into ketosis and greatly increase your odds of high blood pressure, stroke, heart disease, digestive problems and more.

Re: Diabetes: can you really eat to beat it?

#104

Post by nabla9 »

ollysb wrote: post #89
nabla9 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse my ignorance, but this does not seem any way unconventional. It seems to me that you are treating your condition without medication, not reversing it. Exercise and regulating your blood sugar using diet is what doctors suggest but not many people follow it. You still have permanently increased insulin resistance and you must stay on your exercise and diet to prevent it getting worse.

Note they're using the term "reversed" not "cured". > So, nearly four years down the line, is my diet still successful? Yes – but it takes close monitoring and willpower. We all know that diets are notoriously hard to stick to – unless the incentive is powerful enough. In my case, it is. > …and the 1,750-calorie diet he follows now As the theory goes some people are genetically predisposed to accumulating fat within…

How does one differentiate between keeping blood sugar low with low calorie diet and exercise and the better functioning pancreas?

Re: Diabetes: can you really eat to beat it?

#105

Post by wdewind »

_0w8t wrote: post #102
wdewind wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/saturated-fat-healthy/ This is a nice digest of a lot of the science around fats, that while somewhat biased, is a pretty good summary and includes links to studies should you want to dig deeper.

https://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in-defense-of-low-fat-a-ca... is more closer to what I was looking.

Yeah, I think this post is good at explaining the nuance that there are thresholds at which "things become different," but I'm not sure the thresholds he provides are well supported, which is what I thought you were looking for. No one is going to be able to say 30g fat / 100 g of carbs is ok but 30g fat / 110g carbs is not.

Re: Diabetes: can you really eat to beat it?

#106

Post by wdewind »

mchmch wrote: post #103
wdewind wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree, which I why I encourage you to read the numerous studies linked in the post. Note that you've basically said: don't trust your bullshit experts, trust this random youtube search. I'm asking you to read the bullshit expert's digestion of the science, and then read the science, and then tell me where the bullshit expert has gotten it wrong. I totally agree that the nutritional "science" community is fi…

Here is a simple way to see the results for yourself. 1)Spend 30 days eating paleo. 2)Monitor your blood pressure, energy levels, bowel movements, sleep quality 3)Get a fasting glucose test and complete blood lipid profile including HDL/LDL. Research how to read it or ask your dr to interpret the results. 4)Do the same for a very low fat diet (about 10% total calories from fat) Prediction: You will notice the differe…

So I mean that is basically useless because I'm definitely not here to argue that if something works in me it will work in everyone. Diet is a really hard thing to create broad models that works for everyone, and that's sort of my major point: there are many ways to make a diet that works and saying "this is the best and only diet" pretty much is definitionally wrong.

> This is the last comment that I will make... I don't want to offend anybody.

No offense taken, I greatly appreciate the conversation and apologize if I've implied otherwise.

> Remember: Fat+Carbs, not just carbs, causes insulin resistance and leads to type 2 diabetes. If you eliminate the fat your diabetes will improve. If you eliminate the carbs your diabetes will also improve... but you will reduce your energy levels by forcing your body into ketosis and greatly increase your odds of high blood pressure, stroke, heart disease, digestive problems and more.

I would totally agree except that all of the things you mentioned as bad effects of a ketogenic diet are well studied bad effects of moderate fat moderate carb diet, not a high fat low carb (ie: keto) diet. I'm not here to argue for keto, just to say that there are many roads to the same place. A vegan diet may even be the best one for the most people, but if you believe that science is the best way to understand this stuff (and I do) then there isn't science to support that position.

Re: Diabetes: can you really eat to beat it?

#107

Post by spinlock »

wdewind wrote: post #90
spinlock wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a straw-man. Look at the adoption of the low fat/high carb diet by medical professionals in america. Now compare that to the prevalence of obesity and type 2 diabetes.

No offense but you literally just ignored everything I wrote and restated the original argument, which I see all the time, which is "medical professionals don't understand diet and don't recommend the right thing," which is, frankly, bullshit. Let me repeat: There are zero (0) medical professionals advocating for a high sugar diet. The "high carb" part of the recommended diet is meant to come from vegetables and whol…

If you want to talk about bullshit, how about ignoring evidence and resorting to ad-hominum attacks?

I was not ignoring your argument but rather pointing out that there is data showing a correlation between doctors advocating low fat/high carb and obesity in America.

Now, what is a straw-man is to put forth a theoretical/never seen in reality diet and claim that no one has ever gotten fat eating it. Sorry, but an extrapolation from a population of zero to 350 million is a bit much for me.

I think the one point we do agree on is that this is a complex issue. So, you can blame fat people for not listening to their doctors, doctors for not checking the research or food companies for bastardizing what doctors actually recommended to sell low fat/high sugar food and label it "healthy." But it's quite obvious that the advice doctors have been giving for the past few decades has not had the intended effect.

Re: Diabetes: can you really eat to beat it?

#108

Post by wdewind »

spinlock wrote: post #107
wdewind wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense but you literally just ignored everything I wrote and restated the original argument, which I see all the time, which is "medical professionals don't understand diet and don't recommend the right thing," which is, frankly, bullshit. Let me repeat: There are zero (0) medical professionals advocating for a high sugar diet. The "high carb" part of the recommended diet is meant to come from vegetables and whol…

If you want to talk about bullshit, how about ignoring evidence and resorting to ad-hominum attacks? I was not ignoring your argument but rather pointing out that there is data showing a correlation between doctors advocating low fat/high carb and obesity in America. Now, what is a straw-man is to put forth a theoretical/never seen in reality diet and claim that no one has ever gotten fat eating it. Sorry, but an ext…

Sorry but I made zero ad-hominem attacks in my post.

> data showing a correlation between doctors advocating low fat/high carb and obesity in America

No there isn't because no doctor advocates that without the other nuances I provided in my post. I still feel like you are ignoring my posts, because my last post was literally entirely devoted to addressing this nuance. The simple fact is that there is not a large group of people eating according to the medical communities recommendations who are obese. The rise of obesity in America is people largely ignoring medical recommendations. Yes, low fat was in fad for a while, but there is plenty of evidence that a low fat diet can be healthy, and that a high fat diet can be healthy, so, as I've repeatedly said, it depends.

> I think the one point we do agree on is that this is a complex issue.

100%

> But it's quite obvious that the advice doctors have been giving for the past few decades has not had the intended effect.

When you radically simplify their advice, sure. When you actually follow what is recommended, no not really.

Re: Diabetes: can you really eat to beat it?

#109

Post by wdewind »

buzzcut wrote: post #98
wdewind wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense but you literally just ignored everything I wrote and restated the original argument, which I see all the time, which is "medical professionals don't understand diet and don't recommend the right thing," which is, frankly, bullshit. Let me repeat: There are zero (0) medical professionals advocating for a high sugar diet. The "high carb" part of the recommended diet is meant to come from vegetables and whol…

> "there aren't doctors out there recommending cutting out fats and subsisting on sugar" That's true as far as it goes, but the internal fight inside the medical research community was whether it was fat or sugar that was the culprit in a host of physical problems. Fat won in a slam dunk, even though it turns out to be wrong. Doctors are largely not researchers, and they are taught what was the conventional wisdom. T…

> That's true as far as it goes, but the internal fight inside the medical research community was whether it was fat or sugar that was the culprit in a host of physical problems. Fat won in a slam dunk, even though it turns out to be wrong.

The idea that you can isolate it down to fat vs. carbs is "not even wrong." It doesn't ask the right questions, and ignores many other confounding factors. I don't really want to keep restating this point.

There are healthy high fat diets. There are healthy low fat diets.

Re: Diabetes: can you really eat to beat it?

#110

Post by vonmoltke »

nabla9 wrote: post #81
ollysb wrote: post #18

I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes about a year and a half ago, at the time I had an HBA1C of 8.2 (6.0 is the top end of normal). The first thing I did when I got home was google "cure for diabetes", the newcastle diet is what came up. After 6 months of the usual medication (metformin etc.) I decided to give it a go. You can see my log, which includes medication, supplements, exercise, total calories per day and BG…

Excuse my ignorance, but this does not seem any way unconventional. It seems to me that you are treating your condition without medication, not reversing it. Exercise and regulating your blood sugar using diet is what doctors suggest but not many people follow it. You still have permanently increased insulin resistance and you must stay on your exercise and diet to prevent it getting worse.

> You still have permanently increased insulin resistance and you must stay on your exercise and diet to prevent it getting worse.

Dr. Taylor's research, along with other research currently being done, is demonstrating that insulin resistance is not permanent as was once believed. The problem is, as ollysb noted below, getting people to make the lifestyle changes necessary and stick to them. Most people are not willing and able to make the changes required to keep the disease from progressing, let alone increase their insulin sensitivity again.

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