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Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

degoes.net

101–110 of 205 posts

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#101
post #84
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've followed this saga with much confusion and I wonder if you could explain why you'd avoid a conference with a speaker like this. For me, if I'm evaluating a conference speaker, all I care about is: 1. Is the topic useful or interesting? 2. Is the speaker well informed and the content correct? 3. Does the speaker present the material well? I couldn't care less about them otherwise, and especially not their politic…

I do not vet the politics of all my co-speakers. That said, if my black friends are dropping out of a conference because they feel deeply uncomfortable even being near someone, that's as clear a signal as I'm likely to get that something isn't right.

Why not? For all you know, you might be attending talks from raging Nazis or hardcore Stalinists or people who think government-mandated key escrow is a decent idea. Is it only a problem if you know about it?

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#102
This may not be a very popular belief but I honestly don't care what other people believe/think/worship/do as long as it doesn't harm any one else or me. I have extreme liberals on my Twitter feed as do I have extreme conservatives. People post stuff every now and again that kind of turns me off, but I still follow them because they have good stuff to say tech wise. I'm always open minded to what they post though.

In our profession we can't always work with the most open minded people(politically) but as long as the work gets done and they are open minded technically that's all that matters to me. I work with and hang out with people I don't agree with on certain things, drink beer, go over for dinner. No issue for me. I'm Libertarian, so politically I have something I can agree with on both sides usually.

As long as this guy doesn't give any hate speech or harm someone then I honestly don't see the problem.

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#103
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thought experiment: Is there a point at which you can treat a person as "sufficiently abhorrent" to dissuade you from associating with them? Does this point include being a productive member of society and taking part in a democratic civic life? In terms of having a tolerant and open multicultural society, the only things that shouldn't be tolerated are actions and words that run counter to having a tolerant and open…

Yes, of course, obviously. I would not associate myself with, say, someone who in their off time writes long diatribes about how my ethnic group is lazy, incompetent, undeserving of legal rights and fit only to be exterminated or enslaved. I'd be a fool not to shun this person and encourage others to do the same, however nice and pleasant they may be in person. For one, social shaming can, occasionally, be an effecti…

For one, social shaming can, occasionally, be an effective way to change behaviour: it's a short hand for "your opinion is wrong, because all these respectable people say so". For another, I don't have the time and energy or personal obligation to graciously engage with every single person who may be a complete asshole.

What Social Media has generated is a millieu that jumps at the chance to engage in social shaming. It's the same sort of corruption as embodied in a state the jumps at the chance to prosecute to gratify the crowd, regardless of how actual justice is served. I see social shaming as so often practiced as a way for one group to enforce its will over another and assure itself of its own agency. (Such groups also profit non-materially from the additional division and outrage generated.)

it's a short hand for "your opinion is wrong, because all these respectable people say so"

If that's to apply, then the people who are using it first need to have convinced society at large.

Analogy: there are points of etiquette that only apply in a particular culture. If you try enforcing one culture's etiquette when you are the lone member of that culture in a different cultural group, then you are just being foolish. So what about when there are approximately equal numbers? Taking such action in that case also just causes division. It's only when there is a clear majority, and when the majority acts in a benevolent and inclusive fashion that pressure works. Absent benevolence from the majority, there is also only more division. This is just human nature.

In the group dynamic, it doesn't matter that in your mind, you "are right." For one thing, you are only human, so you could well be wrong or misapplying context. In the end, you are either coercing someone or convincing them. It's only the latter that brings true change.

>Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them

This is exactly my point. This is why an "intolerance in spirit" which damages civic life shouldn't be tolerated. Those who are intolerant of others having a different opinion are engaging in a form of selfish intolerance. They are like free speech advocates who suppress their opponents gatherings or religious people who think freedom of religion only applies to their own religion. Somehow such people only need to obey the letter of the law, and the spirit of their principle only needs to apply to those they like.

(EDIT: How can we measure the sincerity of someone's tolerance? Are they ready to tolerate someone who is presently behaving in a tolerant fashion? Or are they champing at the bit to be "righteously intolerant" because someone was intolerant in the distant past or in an entirely different context? I would say the former is sincere tolerance and the latter is a short-sighted and selectively applied "tolerance.")

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#105
post #83
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Those two are supposed to be the same side. How is it different from how "Progressive" and "Classically Liberal/Libertarian" are pretty much opposites?

I just think that one or both sides is being misrepresented or is being dishonest. If you don't want free speech, do you want censorship? If you don't want social justice, do you want social injustice? It's not like you must have one of censorship or social injustice. There's a false dichotomy going on here.

But there isn't, a blind selection process ended up selecting somebody that social justice deems as worthy of censorship. Hence free speech (blind selection of ideas on their merits - regardless of who it is) vs. social justice (ostracization of bigots by removing all platforms for their speech). The policies - of variations of these two ideological positions - are diametrically opposed in this case.

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#106

Apropos of anything else, the 'lawyer' example is a bad one, and contrived for the purpose of example. If an attorney "knows" that their client is guilty, they are duty-bound as officers of the court to make that knowledge known. Obviously that doesn't happen as much as it should...

IANAL, but I don't think they are allowed to make it known if they learned it as part of an attorney-client privileged conversation.

Yeah, it's definitely a catch 22. I do know that you are not allowed to present evidence that you know to be false, such as your client bringing you an alibi witness that is in direct contradiction to your other evidence.

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#107
post #9

This is probably the most reasonable response to these sorts of pressures I've ever seen. One can hope that other groups will follow their lead and strive to act like fully-grown, professional, adults. I'm sure they'll get eviscerated for it, though.

The attempt to be a neutral platform is laudable, and the wording used to express the idea seems to be well thought through.

The fact remains that even though that insist that they are not endorsing any of the speakers' views, the mere act of giving a divisive speaker an audience (even if the presentation is entirely topical and non-controversial) acts as an implicit endorsement. Denying this doesn't change the effective endorsement.

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#108
post #15

There's no such thing as "not becoming political". Hosting an event is a political act; so is selling tickets to the event or paying people to help you run it. These acts might be _normal_ but they're still _political_. When someone says, "I don't want this to get political", what they're really saying is "I'm comfortable with the politics of the status quo and I want things to stay the way they are". Sometimes that'…

I'm not really familiar with the details of this whole LambdaConf drama, but your argument keeps showing up on my Twitter feed regularly and I never found it very convincing to be honest. I don't see why hosting an event is necessarily a political act and I don't see why when people say "I don't want this to get political" it means that they're happy with the status quo. People keep repeating these arguments online a…

That's a totally reasonable question. I typed my initial response on my phone and was going for brevity.

People live in society together. Broadly speaking, political decisions are decisions about what the rules for how we should go about living and working together are. We tend to think of things as _obviously_ political when the community has a debate about whether or not something is acceptable (like abortion). But because politics sets the boundaries of social life, it also defines its interior.

For example, you and I (probably) both agree that it's totally reasonable to go to Starbucks and buy a cup of coffee. We don't think of this as an action anywhere near the boundaries of acceptable conduct, and so we both think of it as not having a whole lot of political meaning. A Marxist, however, would argue that we're participating in an exploitative system because we're using private property, shopping at a capitalist-owned business, etc.

We both don't buy their argument, but simply because they've made it, we're forced to concede that buying coffee is political act. By buying coffee, we're saying we're comfortable with the structures that created Starbucks, or that we judge any harmful consequences of buying coffee to be less important than our day to day convenience. The fact that the action is normal doesn't change the fact that at some point _we decided it was acceptable_, and that decision was _definitely_ political.

To give another example, the Free Software Foundation, is explicitly founded on the idea that everyday acts have political meaning, no matter how normal they are. Take this passage from their site (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-impor...):

>>>With proprietary software, the program controls the users, and some other entity (the developer or “owner”) controls the program. So the proprietary program gives its developer power over its users. That is unjust in itself, and tempts the developer to mistreat the users in other ways.

>>>Freedom means having control over your own life. If you use a program to carry out activities in your life, your freedom depends on your having control over the program. You deserve to have control over the programs you use, and all the more so when you use them for something important in your life.

The FSF is arguing that the way you distribute software is a political decision, not just a matter of technical convenience, and they're totally right to point this out.

Anyway. To bring it back to LambdaConf, De Goes is clearly wrong to claim that things have "become" politicized. It's more accurate to say that giving a speaking slot to racists was political acceptable and has become politically disputed. De Goes doesn't like that things have gone from acceptable to disputed, so he claims he doesn't want things to be "political". But things were always political, it's just that previously they weren't controversial.

This is why people who argue against "politicizing" issues are implicitly arguing for the politics of the status quo. They're arguing against change.

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#109
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could say that, by letting a known asshole speak, they are not showing a strong intolerance of the practice of assholery.

not showing a strong intolerance So everyone needs to show the proper intolerance towards the prescribed things? I'm glad you are coming out and saying that you are engaging in what you think is righteous intolerance. However, I think taking such a stance misses the point.

Well, pretty much, yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#110
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully note that their conclusion is the opposite: that you can separate the person from the talk. That an informative talk well spoken by an asshole is still informative. And, well, the speaker may still be a jerk. But the conference wants to have an air of professionalism, and therefore you should go to be informed, not as a vote in a popularity contest of any kind. They also seem to have a strong intoleran…

"But the conference wants to have an air of professionalism" There is very little chance Yarvin would get past the HR department of any client I can think of, are there professional environments you can think of where his reputation wouldn't cause significant difficulties to participation? I'm not sure an argument from professionalism is the appropriate one. More if you have a club you can invite whoever you like, an…

> There is very little chance Yarvin would get past the HR department of any

I think this is an intended as an attack on Yarvin, but it makes much more sense to me as an attack on HR departments.

If HR departments are filtering out tech ically astute candidates bc of what they do out of the office , they are harming the corporation.

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