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Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

nytimes.com

101–110 of 247 posts

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#101
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all intents and purposes, Turks are white (i.e. the same race as the rest of Europe). The issue, however, is religion. EU has enough problems as is with religion (less than the US, and less than it used to have, but still), but still people are wary. Although IIRC Turkey used to be less religious than it is now, under Erdogan.

It was always as religious. Just the army and the secular order it imposed prevented the religious people from rising trough the society ranks. Which of course fueled Erdogan support ...

Well, the religion and religiousness are very complex concepts in Turkey. We (in this case you, the westerners) tend to treat the other as a homogeneous entity, with prejudices based on the extremes (like treating the Catholic curch as an organisation of paedophilia because some members are guilty of it).

Erdogan and AKP do not have that much of actual support, but the conjecture helps them. An oppositional government can only be forced with these: The secular CHP with about 25 percent support, the nationalist-racist MHP, with about 15-20 percent support, and with the kurdish-nationalist, leftist HDP. Last summer the outcome of the elections allowed these to form a government, but MHP, on the night of the ballot declared that under no circumstances would they have an accord with HDP. And somehow, the sleepy, cease-firing PKK started tumultising southeast again, out of nowhere, and people voted for AKP instead of a crisis in which we live with temporary minority governments or with no actual government at all.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#103
post #35

These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early 1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor can question him for his unconstitu…

From the other hand, we as Greeks, have enjoyed a time of relative peace of mind during the Erdogan rule. In the past, every time Turkey had internal instability issues there was tension in our relationship which even brought as at the brink of war (notably the Imia/Kardak incident in 1996).

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#104
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moreover, this right is established by a treaty between the German states, rather than by a law of the federal government.

So there's basically a media bureaucracy that can decide how much money it wants to earn, without asking any customers. Awesome!

That may be true, but it's irrelevant to my point, which was that the Rundfunkbeitrag is a matter of state (Land) law, and thus even further away from the hands of the federal foreign ministry.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#105
post #68
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"incompatible cultures and values" are almost exactly the words these racists have always used to keep Turkey out. Britain, Spain, Greece, Cyprus and Slovakia are all compatible, but Turkey is a step too far?

In Germany Holocaust denial is illegal and you can get imprisoned for it. In Turkey it is required to deny the Armenian Genocide where the Turks killed a million or so Armenians, an act the word genocide was invented to describe. In Turkey you can get imprisoned for saying it happened. That's a fairly major incompatibility to deal with.

you can deny holocaust in many european countries...

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#106
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press. He does know that that won't ever happen because he wanted. But most the voters of his party will be excited to see him shouting at the Germany, the US, etc. This is not that obvious to the opposition. I came to know some supporters only recently, and boy, they have arousals when the guy acts like this. I'm a Turkish citizen BTW. And see, criticism of Erdogan…

It's almost like an Ottoman revival, except less inclusive. I wonder, will Erdogan bring back Janissaries? Or has he already through his full control of the security forces?

Ottoman? Janissaries, for a time, were so active in deciding who would be the sultan that, they were abolished by, IIRC, sultan Mahmud II. Erdogan has subjugated the police and the army, which were in the past very active in the political scene (frequent coups d'état, many parliamenters from veterans).

And I guess if we preserved the ruling house like the Brits and the spaniards did, and also some form of the Caliphate that acted like Vatican, maybe the things would be easier (I'm a secular agnostic, and I'm completely anti-nationalist). Nowadays there is no entity that is respected as a unifier of the Muslim world.

And further, maybe the Empire was better for middle-east. Here, the nation failed, for the bindings among people are mostly based on kinship, belonging to the same mahalle and memleket, and ultimately religion. But in Turkey you'll find many adjacent mosques and churches, for, AFAIK, it wasn't until nationalism took on that the major conflicts started. Under the Ottomans, yes, the muslim were a bit more advantageous, but not less subject to the sultanate than the christian subjects.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#107

Maybe I'm reading too deep into this, but something about how the writer put this story together makes me think it is an allegory for what could happen if Trump becomes president.

We do call Trump "America's Erdogan".

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#108
post #78
post #35

These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early 1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor can question him for his unconstitu…

Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press. He does know that that won't ever happen because he wanted. But most the voters of his party will be excited to see him shouting at the Germany, the US, etc. This is not that obvious to the opposition. I came to know some supporters only recently, and boy, they have arousals when the guy acts like this. I'm a Turkish citizen BTW. And see, criticism of Erdogan…

> Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press

It hurts your country's ability to leverage foreign minds when you begin to censor the outside world. Plus, with the internet, censorship becomes really impractical. China and North Korea don't do this completely successfully and they spend a lot of effort to keep their citizens on some form of lock down. So not only do you end up missing out on the collective conscience of foreigners, but you also lose some portion of your own population's trust and creativity.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world is working together to solve problems in an open, concerted manner. I'm not saying our world is perfect but I think it's fairly obvious that censorship, in the days of the internet, is not the right way to the future.

We need to get over ourselves, stop being so sensitive, and recognize that even when governments make laws to protect people's feelings, people will still say mean and negative things. I don't want to read those garbage comments here on HN because it fills up the thread, but I can tolerate them in the real world because I know I can just walk away. The only time speech should be regulated is when it incites violence, and I'm sorry to all the extremist Muslims, but drawing a picture is not viewed as inciting violence by most of the world, including most of the people who follow similar forms of that faith.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just goes to show that politics is really really hard. You never get to hear about the decisions that are easy. If it's reported in the media, it's almost by definition an issue with multiple viable options (or, in this case, only bad choices). Having seen a bit of German politics from the inside, I can assure you that everyone grapples with choices like this. I've witnessed ministers of finance changing their opi…

It is interesting that you insult everyone that disagrees with you: "Fucking racist". It looks like you are so unsure about your own arguments that you need insulting them to feel better. The main reason EU closed the door to Turkey had nothing to do with race(their race is the same of Europeans'), and everything to do with culture and religion, specially religion. You could disagree with them and their arguments, bu…

[deleted]

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#110
post #87
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all intents and purposes, Turks are white (i.e. the same race as the rest of Europe). The issue, however, is religion. EU has enough problems as is with religion (less than the US, and less than it used to have, but still), but still people are wary. Although IIRC Turkey used to be less religious than it is now, under Erdogan.

Racism in Germany is not the same as racism in the US or necessarily other parts of the EU. "Südländer" ("people from Southern countries") are effectively treated as an ethnic group, although this includes Italians and Spaniards alongside Turks (but in some cases also Arabs and other non-"whites"). There's also the racist slur "Ölauge" ("oil-eye"), which while ostensibly about eye colour is typically used to refer to…

US racism used to be more variegated like this, but more and more ethnicities got folded into "whiteness" over time (and along with the rise in the fear of blackness.)

White by Law: The Legal Construction of Race by Ian Haney Lopez covers the legal history of whiteness in the US.

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