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For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

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Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#101

Post by p4wnc6 »

frcknfrckn wrote: post #85
p4wnc6 wrote: post #44

Any time a company asks me to do a HackerRank test, I immediately reject them. It's just not possible to have a quality engineering team and to also believe the results of HackerRank tests correspond to on-the-job success. HackerRank is an attempt to commoditize software labor (literally reducing evaluation of your labor fitness to standardized examples). It communicates immediately that creativity is valued less tha…

Ugh. Using a coding test shouldn't be a red flag. They are an incredibly useful tool for weeding out the applicants who, quite frankly, don't know their ass from their keyboard. I've done hiring at several companies over the years, and I can honestly say that the signal-to-noise ratio for programmers tends to be very low. Even eliminating the obviously unqualified resumes leaves us with dozens of supposedly 'qualifie…

The flip side of this is that most companies are "garbage" as you put it, and a lot of them simply do cargo cult imitations of the more popular companies. If a startup is saying they're going to disrupt the online vegan running shoes market and then tells me they have to weed out the "80% garbage applicants" with some parochial trivia about binary search trees that let's be honest none of us has given a shit about since we passed the exam on it in undergrad, then the code test absolutely is a big red flag to nope on out of there.

Since so many jobs are just shitty talent wasters, and you are just treated horribly, given poor equity terms, not paid what you're worth, etc., it unfortunately means that unless you have special knowledge that some particular job is non-shitty (like a trusted recommendation) then you're just better off erring on the side of nope.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#102

Post by wkimeria »

timbofoo wrote: post #66
kafkaesq wrote: post #5

So, how did you get to where you are today? I’ve always been passionate about coding, starting from my early days at Olympiad teams in high school and ACM teams in college. Anyone who's made it onto an Olympiad team[1] of any significant geographical scale, in any category, shouldn't have to deal with this whiteboard nonsense. Maybe a few lightweight-to-medium rounds to verify that they are what they say they are. Bu…

I see the whiteboard coding test as an attitude-test. If you have too much attitude to sit down and write some code for an hour, then you aren't someone I want in my company. It shouldn't be hard if you're skilled. Sorry to be that way, but that's the way I (and we) see it.

Do employees at your company write all their code on whiteboards, without access to documentation, the internet and etc. And then when they have perfected the code they transfer it to a computer? If not, then you are not really interviewing for the right skills are you?

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#103

Post by pdeuchler »

dsmithatx wrote: post #32

One very important thing strikes me about this. Getting 38 job interviews is very much a sign of the times. In 2002 I was a highly skilled senior linux/aix/hp-ux/Solaris admin and PHP programmer and I got laid off. I submitted my resume more than 1000+ times in the first year and ZERO interviews. I hate to sound alarmist but, I fear many younger tech people may not realize how lucky they are currently. If the economy…

While there will definitely be downturns and upswings in the future I doubt we see the kind of tech wasteland that we saw from 2002-2004. Software/the internet/computers are just too involved in today's society and we can't even keep up with the demand right now.

The only way I see software engineering (or at least quality SE) not being a scarce resource in the near future is if we dramatically rehaul our education system within the next 10 years, dramatically increase programmer efficiency, and potentially invent an AI to do basic CRUD style work. Even then though, we're going to need legions of programmers to maintain the crap we're building today, and most of that will require highly specialized and rare knowledge (I, for one, can't wait until node.js programmers are the new FORTRAN maintainers).

Honestly, in the future the only true full time job might be being a programmer. This is probably not a good thing for people like us, as everyone else will be free to pursue their interests while we still bang our heads at syntax errors.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#104

Post by mstrem »

kinai wrote: post #62

"I got turned down by 38 companies, nobody wants to pay me 100k mimimimi" Murican Coders of the 21st Century at the biggest whiners ever...And honestly if you fail to get a job within 3-4 interviews then you are a) doing it wrong or b) applying for the wrong jobs.

I somewhat agree with your statement. Mainly because I personally put a LOT of effort into each job application and I would not be able to apply to more than 2-3 jobs a week. Takes time to find the right company, do research, make a perfect personalized application etc.

As a result to that pretty much all applications I have ever made have at the very least gotten back to me. I would never be able to apply to 38 jobs in 2 months. I feel like a lot of copy paste went on and that sets you to a negative start.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#105

Post by ArkyBeagle »

NTDF9 wrote: post #31

I read the article as: "It's not enough to be a mediocre engineer for a mediocre paying job. If you want to play in the local tennis league, you better be Roger Federer (without his pay)" I think software engineers should counter-question the interviewers. Interviewers should be allowed to judge the candidate only if they can answer the candidate's questions to them. If the interviewer cannot, he/she is not qualified…

You can do this, but it's easier just to end the interview there. Vanishingly close to nobody knows how to interview any more - and I've done more than my share as an interviewer.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#106

Post by wkimeria »

civilian wrote: post #40
6stringmerc wrote: post #13

Some really great advice within that forms a foundation for the narrative. I can really appreciate the diligence and apparent 'no hard feelings' kind of pragmatism. I especially liked the closing part: > If you fail 10 interviews in a row, go for the 11th interview. But take a look at all the variables, and see if there’s anything you can do differently to improve. Take the pressure off, and work through problems rou…

Yeah. When I was job hunting ~3 years ago I knew I was going to have to do a lot of whiteboarding problems. I only had two 2 years of coding experience, and for the last six months I had been freelancing, which doesn't often encourage algorithms. I was working through "Cracking the Coding interview" and "programming interview exposed" but I was worried. So I sent an email to everyone in my coworking space that I'd pu…

This is a brilliant idea

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#107

Post by Balgair »

deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

Oh man, oh man. You asked a doozy of a question. 'Toughness' is a heck of an ill defined term in Western Society, but still hearkens to something we all innately feel. I'll not bore you with a long essay, but give you some resources to start on the journey, should you choose to proceed with earnest.

My biggest recommendation is, of course, google: https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+toughen+up&oq=how+to+...

For a better site, I'd suggest The Art of Manliness. Brett McKay likely has a degree or 2 in Men's Studies at this point on his site. I like him because he gives good advice, tell you when something is not going to be easy to think about, and he lives what he talks and tracks changes to his advice, sometimes calling out old posts of his as wrong. Here are some links on toughness, but the whole site is great:

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2015/10/26/the-sioux-guide-to-...

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2015/05/07/men-and-scars/

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/07/17/keep-your-head-4-ex...

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/10/03/you-may-be-strong-b...

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/11/04/dig-deep-youre-stro...

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2015/03/12/podcast-105-resilie...

If you's like some reading on toughness and the more historical view on it, no better book is there out there than Dr Carlin Barton's 'Roman Honor: The Fire in the Bones'. Her book is really a masterpiece in manliness, toughness, and much more. Available here: http://www.amazon.com/Roman-Honor-The-Fire-Bones/dp/05202252...

Finally, no real discussion and initial voyage into toughness would be possible without mentioning the patron saint of toughness and hardihood, Teddy Roosevelt. The Edmund Morris Trilogy on our manly lord is the best biography I know of, though I think the 1st one is the best: http://www.amazon.com/Edmund-Morriss-Theodore-Roosevelt-Tril... (bonus points for the Churchill series too: http://www.amazon.com/Last-Lion-Box-Set-Churchill/dp/0316227...)

Hope it helps!

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#108

Post by [deleted] »

deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

[deleted]

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#109

Post by hijinks »

deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

Rejection is just a part of life.. I was really scared of rejection till one day I just gave in and told myself that, I'll never get anywhere playing the safe hand.

My advice is go on interviews you don't even care about in hopes to get rejected. Some places might tell you to leave like half way through an interview which is awkward, but most will shoot you an email or you just never hear from them.

Once you get a few rejections under your belt, you learn its not a big deal. I've know some incredibly smart people get rejected. Most times you get rejected because its not a culture fit so its for the better.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#110

Post by lqdc13 »

mstrem wrote: post #104
kinai wrote: post #62

"I got turned down by 38 companies, nobody wants to pay me 100k mimimimi" Murican Coders of the 21st Century at the biggest whiners ever...And honestly if you fail to get a job within 3-4 interviews then you are a) doing it wrong or b) applying for the wrong jobs.

I somewhat agree with your statement. Mainly because I personally put a LOT of effort into each job application and I would not be able to apply to more than 2-3 jobs a week. Takes time to find the right company, do research, make a perfect personalized application etc. As a result to that pretty much all applications I have ever made have at the very least gotten back to me. I would never be able to apply to 38 jobs…

Most applications are quizzes + resume. There is only one way of applying for it.

I got turned down by over 100 companies before I even had an interview. The process is really random.

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