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How Black People Are Being Shut Out of America's Weed Boom

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Re: How Black People Are Being Shut Out of America's Weed Boom

#101

Post by powertower »

chimeracoder wrote: post #71
gluelogic wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crack is highly physically addictive. People aren't out robbing houses to get their next acid fix.

> Crack is highly physically addictive. People aren't out robbing houses to get their next acid fix. Powder cocaine is literally the same drug as crack cocaine, yet the sentencing disparities since the 1980s have been completely out of sync. They've slightly converged in the last ~5 years (crack cocaine sentences have been reduced), but let's not pretend that the sentencing laws[0] have not been radically influenced…

> Powder cocaine is literally the same drug as crack cocaine

Highly incorrect.

Smoking an equivalent amount of cocaine-base (crack) vs snorting cocaine-HCL (powder) is a completely different experience due to purity, ROA, and absorption (surface area of lungs vs nasal passage is 50x), etc.

Not to mention that is not an ionic bond, it is covalent. Different molecule.

Re: How Black People Are Being Shut Out of America's Weed Boom

#102

Post by kennywinker »

traviswingo wrote: post #90
atonparker wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very real problem here, and you don't have to search hard for it. An entire sub-population of this country was disproportionately sentenced to felony convictions. If we don't recognize that for what it was, we are condemning a generation of black people to just "suck it up, because we're thinking about the future now". That is a mistake because these people are part of the future, and they deserve a fair c…

Agreed. I don't think we should ignore the problems, I just think we (and especially the heavy-influencing media) should be much more intelligent about crying "racism" when the issue was not a racist one to begin with. There are far too many publications going out that overreach and point out minor details to make something seem racist or sexist. It's total bullshit and out of context.

If a felony means you can't work in an industry, it's a race issue. Felonies are associated with poverty, and for historic and social reasons poverty is associated with being black. Just because they didn't say "sorry we can't hire you, you're black" doesn't mean it doesn't further the cycle of poverty.

I'm not wagging my finger at the weed places. I get their logic, they're running a business that's already on shaky ground... avoiding any employees who might increase that risk makes sense. I'm wagging my finger at society for providing another example of how we keep perpetuating systemic racism.

Re: How Black People Are Being Shut Out of America's Weed Boom

#103

Post by chimeracoder »

powertower wrote: post #101
chimeracoder wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Crack is highly physically addictive. People aren't out robbing houses to get their next acid fix. Powder cocaine is literally the same drug as crack cocaine, yet the sentencing disparities since the 1980s have been completely out of sync. They've slightly converged in the last ~5 years (crack cocaine sentences have been reduced), but let's not pretend that the sentencing laws[0] have not been radically influenced…

> Powder cocaine is literally the same drug as crack cocaine Highly incorrect. Smoking an equivalent amount of cocaine-base (crack) vs snorting cocaine-HCL (powder) is a completely different experience due to purity, ROA, and absorption (surface area of lungs vs nasal passage is 50x), etc. Not to mention that is not an ionic bond, it is covalent. Different molecule.

> Smoking an equivalent amount of cocaine-base (crack) vs snorting cocaine-HCL (powder) is a completely different experience

This boils down to "the means of ingestion of a drug has a significant effect on the effects of the drug". Anybody who has ever both smoked a joint and consumed THC edibles knows firsthand that this is the case. Insufflation and ingestion are different from inhalation, so yes, the experience, onset, reinforcement mechanisms would be different. That does not change the fact that they are fundamentally the same drug.

> Not to mention that is not an ionic bond, it is covalent. Different molecule.

It's not the form it's transported in that's relevant; it's the form that reaches the CNS that matters[0]. In this case, the pharmacokinetics of the two drugs are the same once they hit the bloodstream.

If that doesn't convince you, the consider that the effects of injecting crack cocaine[1] and powder cocaine are literally chemically identical.

[0] Actually, it's the pharmacokinetic process of the drug that's relevant, since two different molecules can be metabolized identically. (And not all drugs affect the CNS, but that's a side point).

[1] Less common, because smoking is logistically easier, and also results in a sharper onset since it saves half the round trip to the lungs. But it does happen.

Re: How Black People Are Being Shut Out of America's Weed Boom

#104

Post by powertower »

chimeracoder wrote: post #103
powertower wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Powder cocaine is literally the same drug as crack cocaine Highly incorrect. Smoking an equivalent amount of cocaine-base (crack) vs snorting cocaine-HCL (powder) is a completely different experience due to purity, ROA, and absorption (surface area of lungs vs nasal passage is 50x), etc. Not to mention that is not an ionic bond, it is covalent. Different molecule.

> Smoking an equivalent amount of cocaine-base (crack) vs snorting cocaine-HCL (powder) is a completely different experience This boils down to "the means of ingestion of a drug has a significant effect on the effects of the drug". Anybody who has ever both smoked a joint and consumed THC edibles knows firsthand that this is the case. Insufflation and ingestion are different from inhalation, so yes, the experience, o…

> In this case, the pharmacokinetics of the two drugs are the same once they hit the bloodstream.

Highly incorrect.

The amount of the drug and concentration of the drug and the salt or ester of the drug can impact the pharmacokinetics of the drug.

It was used to be thought that morphine and heroin was the same exact thing because the H was converted to morphine quickly. Except H ends up having different metabolites and ratios - not the mention the effects are not the same / even when accounted for the dose and ROA.

Also, to the main point, if one produces 10x the effect of the other, the point is the same...

Crack is severely more punished over cocaine because it severely impacts user behavior - much more so than cocaine. The campaign to punish crack possession was also largely due to blacks demanding it to be made as so.

Re: How Black People Are Being Shut Out of America's Weed Boom

#105

Post by chimeracoder »

powertower wrote: post #104
chimeracoder wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Smoking an equivalent amount of cocaine-base (crack) vs snorting cocaine-HCL (powder) is a completely different experience This boils down to "the means of ingestion of a drug has a significant effect on the effects of the drug". Anybody who has ever both smoked a joint and consumed THC edibles knows firsthand that this is the case. Insufflation and ingestion are different from inhalation, so yes, the experience, o…

> In this case, the pharmacokinetics of the two drugs are the same once they hit the bloodstream. Highly incorrect. The amount of the drug and concentration of the drug and the salt or ester of the drug can impact the pharmacokinetics of the drug. It was used to be thought that morphine and heroin was the same exact thing because the H was converted to morphine quickly. Except H ends up having different metabolites a…

> The amount of the drug and concentration of the drug and the salt or ester of the drug can impact the pharmacokinetics of the drug.

Can, but in the case of crack cocaine vs. powder cocaine, they demonstrably do not[0][1].

> Crack is severely more punished over cocaine because it severely impacts user behavior - much more so than cocaine

It really does not. It can be (but is not always) more habit-forming to smoke a drug than to insufflate it, but this is true of all substances. And intravenous or subcutaneous use of crack cocaine and powder cocaine are literally, 100% identical.

> The campaign to punish crack possession was also largely due to blacks demanding it to be made as so.

No. There was support from within the black community, but to say it is "largely" due to this is overstating the case.

And getting back to the original point, that doesn't actually contradict the original statement, because the reason that black communities felt the impact of violent drug crime and white communities didn't is itself a direct effect of the racial power structures involved.

[0] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8926741

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8918856

Re: How Black People Are Being Shut Out of America's Weed Boom

#106

Post by powertower »

chimeracoder wrote: post #105
powertower wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In this case, the pharmacokinetics of the two drugs are the same once they hit the bloodstream. Highly incorrect. The amount of the drug and concentration of the drug and the salt or ester of the drug can impact the pharmacokinetics of the drug. It was used to be thought that morphine and heroin was the same exact thing because the H was converted to morphine quickly. Except H ends up having different metabolites a…

> The amount of the drug and concentration of the drug and the salt or ester of the drug can impact the pharmacokinetics of the drug. Can, but in the case of crack cocaine vs. powder cocaine, they demonstrably do not[0][1]. > Crack is severely more punished over cocaine because it severely impacts user behavior - much more so than cocaine It really does not. It can be (but is not always) more habit-forming to smoke a…

Your references support my statements...

"However, evidence exists showing a greater abuse liability, greater propensity for dependence, and more severe consequences when cocaine is smoked (cocaine-base) or injected intravenously (cocaine hydrochloride) compared with intranasal use (cocaine hydrochloride).)."

The fact that the effects are different, even with the "same drug".

> the reason that black communities felt the impact of violent drug crime and white communities didn't is itself a direct effect of the racial power structures involved.

Except no matter where you go in the world, no matter its racial break-down, and no matter what it's history is, the pattern is the same: blacks disproportionately commit violent acts. And when those places are near 100% black, it gets even worse.

> And intravenous or subcutaneous use of crack cocaine and powder cocaine are literally, 100% identical.

We are comparing powder cocaine insufflated with crack smoked and how that impacted black communities.

Re: How Black People Are Being Shut Out of America's Weed Boom

#107

Post by chimeracoder »

powertower wrote: post #106
chimeracoder wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The amount of the drug and concentration of the drug and the salt or ester of the drug can impact the pharmacokinetics of the drug. Can, but in the case of crack cocaine vs. powder cocaine, they demonstrably do not[0][1]. > Crack is severely more punished over cocaine because it severely impacts user behavior - much more so than cocaine It really does not. It can be (but is not always) more habit-forming to smoke a…

Your references support my statements... "However, evidence exists showing a greater abuse liability, greater propensity for dependence, and more severe consequences when cocaine is smoked (cocaine-base) or injected intravenously (cocaine hydrochloride) compared with intranasal use (cocaine hydrochloride).)." The fact that the effects are different, even with the "same drug". > the reason that black communities felt…

> Except no matter where you go in the world, no matter its racial break-down, and no matter what it's history is, the pattern is the same: blacks disproportionately commit violent acts.

I wish you'd come out and stated that this was your thesis from the very beginning. I now regret having wasted my time with this conversation.

Re: How Black People Are Being Shut Out of America's Weed Boom

#108

Post by EdHominem »

greenisland wrote: post #27
mtalantikite wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point here is that there are more consequences when you're Black in the US. Statistically speaking people of color, and in particular Black Americans, are arrested and convicted of marijuana related crimes at a much higher rate than any other group [1]. That translates into Black Americans being kept out of the newly legal business because of racist policing policies. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/…

I appreciate your remarks. But -- what I'm saying is that no one should feel sorry for this guy. It pains me to see the vast numbers of Americans who but a few years ago were for tough legislation and tough policies and who now desire to see criminals released from prison because the sentence may be too harsh. Really? If you do the crime, you do the time. We should not undo sentencing. It was all done legally at the…

No, that's precisely backwards.

We changed the law because we thought it had been incorrect. Any convictions from an incorrect law are obvious an error, not a feature.

Re: How Black People Are Being Shut Out of America's Weed Boom

#109

Post by hnmcs »

hnmcs wrote: post #89
hnmcs wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A tail wagging the dog is the notion I wish to deplore the most. Way too many people think that pure logic (and wisdom of experience) is what leads to their value-judgements and opinions. Like my example mom-and-pop broker above (who is no fat cat in the scheme of things, just someone too invested in the neoliberal capitalist paradigm to think straight anymore), they will switch their value judgements when their one…

> "mom and pop broker" /s/broker/asset manager/

/s/asset manager/currency trader/
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