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London vs San Francisco – back and forth

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Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#101

Post by libertine »

kinnth wrote: post #38

I currently live in London and have never lived in SF but have travelled every year for GDC (games developer conf) for 1 week a year. I tend to agree with the author. The place is lovely, it's almost like a heaven on earth with almost all ameneties, temperatures and people within a 3h driving time from SF, but for some reason London with it's grey grimey and dirty history has more appeal. Perhaps it's the fact that y…

You should try Lisbon - it's not quite there yet in the tech and startup scene, but it's getting there.

Awesome weather with nearby beach's, rich history and culture, really cheap when compared to London, it's way smaller and therefore more "cozy" - the only problem is the hills if you want to ride bikes.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#102

Post by ghaff »

dboreham wrote: post #79
henson wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here. This is fascinating to read! I (naively) assumed that things were better across the board prior to any of the tech booms. I lived in SF and commuted to San Mateo which was a non-trivial trip (coming from the tiny UK) and the BART/Caltrain combination was horrendous for different reasons (Caltrain was unreliable, BART was dirty). I did notice that a lot of the Caltrains were old Japanese trains from the 8…

I don't remember anything prior to the mid-70's but I have a distinct impression that cities everywhere in the western world were much dirtier and crime-ridden in the past (things began to improve around the 1980s, or Rudy Giuliani time).

That's certainly true of the US in general. The standard narrative is that it was driven by "white flight," which in turn reduced investments in urban infrastructure, etc. Like many narratives, there's some truth in it but it doesn't really account for the fact that at least some Western European cities were also dirtier and more crime-ridden than today.

Giuliani was elected mayor in 1993, which did line up pretty well with New York getting cleaned up a lot. However, this was a more general trend even if it didn't apply everywhere (e.g. Detroit).

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#103

Post by laurencerowe »

ozy123 wrote: post #83

I've lived and worked in the UK most of my life and moved to SF three years ago. There were a few things you omitted in your comparison but probably won't immediately apparent in the short time you were here. Salary difference. On average Most decent experienced devs in London make around 50-60k pounds which is around 80-85k dollars. An entry level dev in SF makes anywhere between 90 - 120k dollars and most experienc…

It is difficult to find a well paid senior developer job in London. I'm not sure if this is the cause or effect of so many experienced developers becoming freelance consultants. Rates of £500-700/day for long term contract work with corporate / finance clients are fairly common, so you can easily double your salary vs permanent employment (or work half the time.)

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#105

Post by clock_tower »

wozniacki wrote: post #44
kinnth wrote: post #38

I currently live in London and have never lived in SF but have travelled every year for GDC (games developer conf) for 1 week a year. I tend to agree with the author. The place is lovely, it's almost like a heaven on earth with almost all ameneties, temperatures and people within a 3h driving time from SF, but for some reason London with it's grey grimey and dirty history has more appeal. Perhaps it's the fact that y…

People generally agree that it rains between 140 and 160 days a year on average, in London. Do you ever get acclimated to the constant soggyness / dampness, the mugginess & the lack of steady bright sunlight even if you were born & raised there ? Especially when you have to live in such small quarters without ample backyards, which are puny even by SF standards. I don't know if Seattle gets such frequent rainfall alt…

> Do you ever get acclimated to the constant soggyness / dampness, the mugginess & the lack of steady bright sunlight even if you were born & raised there ?

I think you have to be born to it. I'm of mostly West Country and Bavarian stock; growing up in the American South, where the cooking's from Scotland and the weather's from India, was hellish for me. I'm in Seattle now, and absolutely loving the cold and damp. I expect I'd enjoy Britain still more, when and if I get the chance to visit or maybe move there, since it offers cold, damp, and history; but I wouldn't want to live in a dry, hot climate any more than a wet, hot one.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#106

Post by laurencerowe »

DrNuke wrote: post #65

London? Manchester is equally viable for business, Bristol has better quality of life and Edinburgh is top for arts. Each for 1/3 - 1/2 of the cost. Even cheaper is Birmingham, and strategically located in the West Midlands. Who needs the rat race in London if you work with computers?

Manchester is a great place to live, but the UK is so London-centric finding interesting non-remote work there was a challenge. The BBC opening a big office there did help though.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#107

Post by orthoganol »

stcredzero wrote: post #88
nakedrobot2 wrote: post #27

This is like Stalin vs. Hitler London: gloomy, tremendously overcrowded, stressed people everywhere, binge drinking until 11pm and then you're out of luck, spineless european investors, and a cost of doing business so high due to high rents and expenses, that the Startup scene is really a non-starter. SF: The frat boys have won, the nerds are a long-gone memory, the city is eating itself with brogrammers while americ…

> SF: The frat boys have won, the nerds are a long-gone memory, the city is eating itself with brogrammers Bravo! What we have in SF are the social dynamics of Mad Men with the supposed trappings of "geekdom." There's still bullying, it just doesn't happen in the locker room, and the pretexts have different texts.

The "Brogrammer" is nothing more than the "Other" that certain people in SF likes to project all their unhappiness into, because they are unable to think very critically about social issues in the city. Lazy thinking. I've met maybe 2, my entire 6 years living in SF as a programmer. CEOs, finance, sales, marketing is where the actual SF bros are. When someone complains about the "brogrammer epidemic" it's not unreasonable to claim they may have some issues of their own they are dealing with.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#108

Post by stcredzero »

orthoganol wrote: post #107
stcredzero wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> SF: The frat boys have won, the nerds are a long-gone memory, the city is eating itself with brogrammers Bravo! What we have in SF are the social dynamics of Mad Men with the supposed trappings of "geekdom." There's still bullying, it just doesn't happen in the locker room, and the pretexts have different texts.

The "Brogrammer" is nothing more than the "Other" that certain people in SF likes to project all their unhappiness into, because they are unable to think very critically about social issues in the city. Lazy thinking. I've met maybe 2, my entire 6 years living in SF as a programmer. CEOs, finance, sales, marketing is where the actual SF bros are. When someone complains about the "brogrammer epidemic" it's not unreaso…

> The "Brogrammer" is nothing more than the "Other" that certain people in SF likes to project all their unhappiness into

The "Brogrammer" is largely fictional. (Though I really did work for "the original metro-sexual brogrammer" in Houston, but he was an anomaly!) However, the kind of disingenuous othering and aggression perpetrated by the fictional "brogrammer" is done by many in the tech community, just with different trappings. (Which makes such behavior harder to see for what it is. We are all conditioned to seeing that as "the good guys" striking a blow for something.) So you may read my comment like this: "The real brogrammer epidemic is programmers and tech workers in general succumbing to the effects of affluence and privilege." Also: "The real brogrammers look and sound nothing like brogrammers. They look and sound like us!"

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#109

Post by notlefthanded »

dipthegeezer wrote: post #86
rawTruthHurts wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"with the excellent bus and tube system" Let's just say "reasonably good"

I'd say it was very good compared to just about any country that is not in North Europe. And I really don't have an issue with busses anymore in London. TFL have a fantastic API which tells you when the bus you want is arriving at a stop amoungst many other things.

I quite enjoy using Hong Kong and Tokyo's transit systems - subway, train, and esp. hk's minibuses - though as a visitor, i.e. not during rush hour.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#110

Post by ghaff »

notlefthanded wrote: post #109
dipthegeezer wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say it was very good compared to just about any country that is not in North Europe. And I really don't have an issue with busses anymore in London. TFL have a fantastic API which tells you when the bus you want is arriving at a stop amoungst many other things.

I quite enjoy using Hong Kong and Tokyo's transit systems - subway, train, and esp. hk's minibuses - though as a visitor, i.e. not during rush hour.

There are probably exceptions but I'm guessing that there are very few people who love their city's mass transit system if they have to use it daily at rush hour in all kinds of weather.
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