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AppImage: Linux apps that run anywhere

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Re: AppImage: Linux apps that run anywhere

#101

Post by matzipan »

djsumdog wrote: post #95
michaelmrose wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think that although this might be a boon to packagers it results in an inferior system wherein people end up with bloated,buggy packages. I don't want to deal with 2 different package managers and new users are apt to be confused by the idea that they get packages from 2 different places.

Yea, I agree. I personally think that this is a huge step backwards. Look at Android and MacOS. You have these self contained packaging things that contain all their dependencies. You have the same dependencies in each package. You have a TON of wasted space with packages that have the exact same built-in libraries and jar files. Especially with Android, they could have made a real package dependency system, with slo…

Is space really an issue in most non-mobile user devices nowadays? Consider the tradeoffs: a bit of space vs. packaging nightmare which results in old, buggy and insecure packages. This was posted a few days back on hn: https://statuscode.ch/2016/02/distribution-packages-consider...

I am not sure if the whole jar package dependency management would work under ART.

Re: AppImage: Linux apps that run anywhere

#102

Post by recursive »

upofadown wrote: post #84

From the website: >Just download the application, website, make it executable, and run! You want me to download some mystery program and run it with all my privileges? No ... that isn't going to happen...

Presumably, you'd only do this if you knew what it was and you wanted it.

Re: AppImage: Linux apps that run anywhere

#103

Post by recursive »

pdonis wrote: post #22

TL/DR: Let's take the broken app model that lets people download and run buggy, virus-infected programs on Windows and OS X, and bring it to Linux!

Every model ever devised lets people run buggy programs. If I couldn't run buggy programs, I wouldn't be able to run any programs at all.

Re: AppImage: Linux apps that run anywhere

#104

Post by _ZeD_ »

"As a user, I want to download an application from the original author, and run it on my Linux desktop system just like I would do with a Windows or Mac application."

what? no, man... this is the win9x "freeware" application install.exe, with my machine fill with crap

Re: AppImage: Linux apps that run anywhere

#105

Post by matzipan »

SwellJoe wrote: post #89
drdaeman wrote: post #24

I believe the core problem here (that led to containerization, application images and alike) is that correct packaging for most distros is hard. There are tools like fpm or even checkinstall that can build simple good-enough-but-not-really packages, but I think maintaining a "proper" Debian packaging requires some pretty arcane knowledge that's spread around various pieces of documentation (and maybe I'm just stupid,…

Debian packaging isn't too awful, though I don't like how many files are involved (I prefer a single spec file, plus patches, as found in RPM). But, apt repository management is truly terrible. The documentation is laughably bad and disjointed, and it points to several different tools and processes that may or may not work together; my Debian/Ubuntu repo generation script is a ridiculous mishmash of stuff that kinda…

Is this of help to you? https://github.com/spotify/debify

Re: AppImage: Linux apps that run anywhere

#106

Post by DanielDent »

revelation wrote: post #100
DanielDent wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Linux Kernel interface does an excellent job of remaining stable. There's a surprisingly small set of interfaces that the kernel actually exposes to userland, and in the words of Linus, "WE DO NOT BREAK USERSPACE!". I don't see the lack of stable APIs elsewhere as an actual problem. The biggest problem is that it makes life harder for proprietary software developers - it's pretty much mandatory for them to setup…

What exactly was achieved in the backwards compatibility nightmare that is Gnome 3, for example? This: https://trac.transmissionbt.com/ticket/3685 All things UI in Linux distributions go through so much insane thrashing that very very few application developers want to bother. There are no tangible benefits to UI thrashing; people use systems for software , not window chrome!

Desktop Linux is definitely still maturing...

I'm not up on the latest in Gnome-land and don't know the background on the issue you linked, but it looks like the benefit is that they get to stop maintaining a bunch of code for a UI feature they've decided isn't actually a good idea. That will make it easier for them to continue to build reliable software, as there will be less legacy code to consider when writing future code.

The UI churn you talk about may be because the "window manager" concept is probably fundamentally flawed. Creating a coherent and sensible UI when you have to target a whole suite of different window managers which may use entirely different UI paradigms is... probably a nigh-unsolvable problem which might not even be worth working on.

Re: AppImage: Linux apps that run anywhere

#107

Post by rythie »

matzipan wrote: post #59

What this could and should lead to is this: a separation between system packages and user applications, prefferably with two different managers. What we have now are mostly system package managers, you want them to be stable, secure, having the latest features might not be necessary. But we see more and more often that that distribution channel doesn't work well with applications: you end up with old, buggy, insecure…

Not everyone has root on their Linux box and even if you do, you ought to be able to install applications as you without sudo'ing anything. Right now most Linux applications guide you to a deb/rpm which runs as root (and who knows if you can trust it).

TBH this is just the start of making applications more secure, they ought to be sandboxed too, so one application can't read the data from another application by default (similar to how phones work).

Re: AppImage: Linux apps that run anywhere

#108

Post by matzipan »

rythie wrote: post #107
matzipan wrote: post #59

What this could and should lead to is this: a separation between system packages and user applications, prefferably with two different managers. What we have now are mostly system package managers, you want them to be stable, secure, having the latest features might not be necessary. But we see more and more often that that distribution channel doesn't work well with applications: you end up with old, buggy, insecure…

Not everyone has root on their Linux box and even if you do, you ought to be able to install applications as you without sudo'ing anything. Right now most Linux applications guide you to a deb/rpm which runs as root (and who knows if you can trust it). TBH this is just the start of making applications more secure, they ought to be sandboxed too, so one application can't read the data from another application by defau…

I believe Ubuntu has done a some progress in this area with Snap packages.

Re: AppImage: Linux apps that run anywhere

#110

Post by anonbanker »

drdaeman wrote: post #24

I believe the core problem here (that led to containerization, application images and alike) is that correct packaging for most distros is hard. There are tools like fpm or even checkinstall that can build simple good-enough-but-not-really packages, but I think maintaining a "proper" Debian packaging requires some pretty arcane knowledge that's spread around various pieces of documentation (and maybe I'm just stupid,…

Ranking package managers by difficulty of creating packages (1-10, lowest to highest):

1. tarballs (slackware)

2. Ports (FreeBSD)

3. Portage (Gentoo, Calculate Linux)

4. pacman (Arch, Archbang, KaOS, Manjaro, Antergos)

5. building from source (Linux From Scratch, Most old installs eventually turn into this)

6. rpm (Redhat, Mandriva, Scientific Linux, UnitedLinux)

7. deb (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint/LMDE, Hanna Montana Linux)

Why Debian and Redhat-derivatives are the most popular, I'll never understand. I have _way_ less headaches maintaining custom Calculate Linux chromebooks than I ever did with fleets of Redhat or Ubuntu laptops.

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