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Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#101

Post by teacup50 »

aioprisan wrote: post #31
chinathrow wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if another agency already has an NSL in place requiring exactly the same (backdoor, weak crypto params, weak by design secure enclave) and they simply are under a gag order to talk about?

NSLs can only ask for information, not force a company to build a product. That kind of request would have to come through legislation and apply to all US companies in a similar situation.

That's not really true; as evidence, I give you Room 641A: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A

"Room 641A is a telecommunication interception facility operated by AT&T for the U.S. National Security Agency"

As long as you have a backdoor, and Apple does, shady government agencies can and do come knocking. We've got plenty of shady government agencies, and can never guarantee that we won't have more in the future.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#102

Post by karmelapple »

abalone wrote: post #50

It's important to emphasize something: iCloud will always be "backdoored", by design, and backing up to iCloud is what most users should and will be doing. The reason iCloud data will always be accessible by Apple, and thus governments, is not because Apple wants to make it accessible to governments. It's so that Apple can offer customers the very important feature of accessing their own data if they forget or otherw…

> When someone passes away, for example, it would be a terrible compounding tragedy if all their photos from their whole life passed away along with them, because they didn't tell anyone their password or where they kept the backup key. So Apple wants and needs to provide an alternative way to recover the account. (For example, they will provide access to a deceased person's account if their spouse can obtain a court order proving the death and relationship.)

A pretty interesting point.

Photos are probably good to recover... unless they were photos of something horrible you did (beat up someone, sent photos of your anatomy, etc.).

What about text messages? Again, it could express what kind of person you are. Do all iOS users have unwitting diaries that will be unlocked at our death in the form of our iMessage and SMS history?

In 400 years, will our ancestors point out, "Wow, great-great-great-grandma was pretty awful, did you see this text they sent once?" in a way that removes context from the message written at the time. This is something we can't know about our ancestors... and probably for the best, since otherwise we might be disappointed in our ancestors.

Or maybe that's an okay thing?

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#103

Post by teacup50 »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #90
studentrob wrote: post #67

Good. Congress shall pass no law abridging freedom of speech, and code has been ruled free speech. The only reason previous wiretapping laws were passed is because they weren't in the limelight and the public never had a chance to weigh in. Let's make this an election issue

> Good. Congress shall pass no law abridging freedom of speech, and code has been ruled free speech. Unless it breaks DRM!

Which, ironically, is exactly what Apple is protecting here. DRM.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#104

Post by zekevermillion »

The article doesn't cite a source. It doesn't even say that it is anonymously sourced from someone close to Apple (who presumably is leaking). That makes me wonder if the real source of this info is Apple-approved, and sort of an indirect way of engaging policymakers. I get the sense that Apple is picking a fight b/c the DOJ has violating an unwritten agreement, basically that Apple will provide all the help requested, informally, as long as the DOJ doesn't push for court orders or new laws that tie Apple's hands in constructing its devices and the software that runs on them.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#105

Post by autoreleasepool »

abalone wrote: post #50

It's important to emphasize something: iCloud will always be "backdoored", by design, and backing up to iCloud is what most users should and will be doing. The reason iCloud data will always be accessible by Apple, and thus governments, is not because Apple wants to make it accessible to governments. It's so that Apple can offer customers the very important feature of accessing their own data if they forget or otherw…

I actually intend for my private data to die with me. I have gone out of my way to guarantee that it will. In my view, if I haven't published it, then it shouldn't be accessible.

I have absolutely nothing to hide. I have simply always treated my privacy as something that was valuable in it of itself. Perhaps even more valuable than the photos I clearly opted to not share with others, to go off your example.

I also don't understand why it's so absurd for some people to conceptualize non-malicious things you wouldn't wasn't to share with anyone but yourself. Hell, I have tons of notes and things I write to myself that I definitely do not want to be seen by anyone. They simply weren't written with the intention to be read by others. So I don't sympathize with desire to make a deceased person's private things accessible, even to family. Let it burn. It might have been the owner's intention all along.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#106

Post by jacobparker »

Crito wrote: post #79
r00fus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they have access to a live finger for the TouchID, sure they can bypass - but they could do that with the $5 guaranteed coercion method as well [1]. Copying a good fingerprint from a dead finger or a randomly placed print is not easy [2]. It's hard, doable but you get 5 tries so if you screw up, you have thrown away all the hard work of the print transfer. All bets are off if the iPhone is power-cycled. Best bet i…

> "Copying a good fingerprint from a dead finger or a randomly placed print is not easy [2]. It's hard, doable but you get 5 tries so if you screw up, you have thrown away all the hard work of the print transfer." You get plenty of tries to perfect the technique, before using it on the actual device. You acquire identical hardware and "dead finger countermeasures" (does the iphone employ any? Some readers look for pu…

There's also a 48 hour window and touch ID doesn't work initially after booting.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204587

Great design.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#107

Post by awqrre »

abalone wrote: post #50

It's important to emphasize something: iCloud will always be "backdoored", by design, and backing up to iCloud is what most users should and will be doing. The reason iCloud data will always be accessible by Apple, and thus governments, is not because Apple wants to make it accessible to governments. It's so that Apple can offer customers the very important feature of accessing their own data if they forget or otherw…

I guess you could send pre-encrypted data to iCloud to try to avoid Apple's backdoor... but of course if you do that from an Apple device, there is no guarantees...

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#108

Post by r00fus »

tptacek wrote: post #54
newjersey wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you be convicted in the US based on evidence obtained with physical torture? Edit: Looks like the answer is it depends and not a resounding no http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/evidence-obtained-thr...

No, you cannot. Evidence derived from facts learned from torture is also excludable.

Torture to get detailed info, use details to establish plausible parallel construction.

Enter parallel-constructed information as court-sanitized evidence.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#109

Post by TillE »

zekevermillion wrote: post #104

The article doesn't cite a source. It doesn't even say that it is anonymously sourced from someone close to Apple (who presumably is leaking). That makes me wonder if the real source of this info is Apple-approved, and sort of an indirect way of engaging policymakers. I get the sense that Apple is picking a fight b/c the DOJ has violating an unwritten agreement, basically that Apple will provide all the help requeste…

That's normal style in mainstream journalism, weird as it is. If you read a lot of sports journalism for example, you'll see a ton of articles which are literally just a summarized transcript of a phone call a reporter got from an agent, written as if it's just pure factual information that appeared from thin air. At least in those cases it's trivial to guess who the source actually is.

Again, it is objectively very strange to not even hint at what the source of your information is. But it's also standard practice.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#110

Post by r00fus »

superuser2 wrote: post #45
r00fus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they have access to a live finger for the TouchID, sure they can bypass - but they could do that with the $5 guaranteed coercion method as well [1]. Copying a good fingerprint from a dead finger or a randomly placed print is not easy [2]. It's hard, doable but you get 5 tries so if you screw up, you have thrown away all the hard work of the print transfer. All bets are off if the iPhone is power-cycled. Best bet i…

It is not a good bet if you're pulled over by the authorities to be doing something with your hands that they can't reliably identify as different from preparing a weapon. Particularly if not white.

Power-cycling can be done relatively quickly - in 10sec with two fingers (no swipe), or 5 sec + swipe if you only have one hand available.
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