Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–106 of 106 posts

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#101

Post by camillomiller »

saurik wrote: post #91
camillomiller wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This makes no sense. Sure: someone can make their device less secure if they want. I absolutely support you doing that. Well yeah, I guessed so. People in Cupertino probably think that's basically your mission :D (I don't, though). What I wanted to say is that building a security platform that completely locks you out of the device you're building is 1) Hard 2) full of political and legal implications. Even then, A…

> People in Cupertino probably think that's basically your mission :D (I don't, though). Good, because anyone who thinks that even casually is either completely uninformed or an idiot :/. (I vaguely apologize for the bluntness, but this is an insinuated attack even with the statement that you don't believe it, at which point one would question why you brought it up in the first place.) > Why are they the only one to…

I'm a non-native speaker Jay, don't imply insinuations, because I'm usually not so subtle with my language. That was just a bad joke.

Believe me, I do think your work is phenomenal. Period. I'm sorry I've never been to one of your talks. If you'll ever do one in Berlin in the future I won't certainly miss it. :)

That said, I understand your point but I don't really agree. You're saying Apple is doing all this while basically lying for what? Sheer publicity? Do they really think that this kind of unusual marketing would be good for them?

It's the implications (legal, not technical ones) that are at stake here. Three hours of Apple engineers' time spent working for the government, by the way, would already account as an unreasonable burden, in my book. Especially after they already complied with the FBI requests just to find out they messed up the iCloud password...

Is iOS much more secure that any other mobile platform? Isn't Apple saying just that? And don't you believe it's true? Apparently yes, you do! They do are working towards what you advocate for here (making the users' data completely unaccessible to them). Just look at the evolution of security from iOS 7 to iOS 9. We're still not there, yet. Maybe that's what's brewing for iOS 10, who knows...

By the way, since we're here and you're clearly the best person to ask... I'm curious about how Apple stores and keeps their private signing key for iOS secure. How do they do that? Has anybody ever tried to steal that? That's something nobody's talking about, but I'm really curious about the physical implications of keeping something like that safe.

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#102

Post by pfg »

camillomiller wrote: post #101
saurik wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People in Cupertino probably think that's basically your mission :D (I don't, though). Good, because anyone who thinks that even casually is either completely uninformed or an idiot :/. (I vaguely apologize for the bluntness, but this is an insinuated attack even with the statement that you don't believe it, at which point one would question why you brought it up in the first place.) > Why are they the only one to…

I'm a non-native speaker Jay, don't imply insinuations, because I'm usually not so subtle with my language. That was just a bad joke. Believe me, I do think your work is phenomenal. Period. I'm sorry I've never been to one of your talks. If you'll ever do one in Berlin in the future I won't certainly miss it. :) That said, I understand your point but I don't really agree. You're saying Apple is doing all this while b…

I would imagine the firmware signing key is stored on a Hardware Security Module (HSM). Devices like that are tamper resistant (for example, they might be configured to delete the key if someone is messing with the device).

HSMs generally support signing operations, so it's likely the key doesn't leave the device at all. They might be using a configuration with shared secrets (smart card + PIN, etc.) where at least n shares need to be present to operate the HSM. Those secrets are probably held by a small number of high-level Apple employees.

It's probably similar to the DNSSEC Root Signing Ceremony[1]. Well, hopefully slightly less insane.

[1]: https://www.cloudflare.com/dnssec/root-signing-ceremony/

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#103

Post by plorg »

zer01 wrote: post #64
acqq wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's hoping that the iPhone 7 has a secure enclave that either 1.) deletes keys on firmware flash, or 2.) doesn't allow it to be upgraded ever. If you hope for that, consider the legal base on which FBI made the current request: All Writs Act, which is, in full: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Writs_Act "(a) The Supreme Court and all courts established by Act of Congress may issue all writs necessary or appropr…

I agree that it would be upsetting if precedent was made, but I believe it is technically feasible to build a device whose keys are only known by an end user. The FBI is basically asking to go down legitimate update channels to brute force their pass-code, and while that's still a feasible option, of course the FBI is going to ask to use it. Updating the security model of the secure enclave to either destroy keys on…

The age of the law should not be an indicator of how applicative it is. Consider that the All Writs Act was written at essentially the same time as the fourth ammendment. Similarly, it appears to be written broadly with the very intent that it can be applied in many circumstances.

What has changed in the past 2 centuries is the way the law is interpreted by the courts. And if this case keeps going it will probably be another that defines what the limits of that law.

If there is something you should be concerned about with All Writs it is not its age but its scope. Unless Congress provides a more specific legal framework (which we have seen in a number of other technical cases, for good or, often, ill), it will continue to be decided by judges and justices.

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#104

Post by studentrob »

saurik wrote: post #83
pfg wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are a lot of conflating issues in this discussion. Firmware signing and how updates are delivered are one thing. I would argue that having only one possible adversary is preferable to everyone being able to create firmware that runs on your device. If there's a practical and secure approach that would allow users to install only firmware updates they approve of, I'd be all for that[1]. In the end - plea…

> Speaking as a developer. I'm not qualified to answer this for sure, but my gut feeling is that such a feature in the hands of typical end-users might actually be a bad thing for security. I think users should be allowed to make the security tradeoffs they consider relevant. Many people leave a key to the door of their house somewhere outside but nearby, yet I don't think the people who build locks should decide tha…

> I don't think the people who build locks should decide that that is never acceptable and decide to play parent and come up with a solution to this problem: I would prefer people to be informed about the tradeoffs they are making, but they should be allowed to do what they want.

Shouldn't Apple be allowed to do as it wants?

> what is fundamentally different is only that people realize the government might be able to force Apple to use their key.

The public already knows from the ongoing debate that the current iPhone is unlockable by Apple. What difference does it make if the key does not exist yet, as Apple says, or if it does, as you say? Everyone knows the power is in Apple's hands. We'll all demand better iPhone security as a result of this discussion.

> this enables the people who want more security ... to go "above and beyond".

I understand you are asking Apple for a specific feature that gives more security. Regardless of the existence of this particular case, you would still be trying to raise awareness and gather support for pushing Apple to implement that feature. Is that fair to say? I support you in that effort. I also think this discussion ought to be held separately, perhaps after the case, so that we can focus on not giving the DOJ any means to handcuff the tech companies. The results of this case will have a dramatic impact on all tech, and if you truly care about privacy and security, you will support Apple's stance.

Let's table the debate about how Apple needs to improve its phone security and allow users to update firmware, and focus on matters at stake: whether or not the DOJ should be able to compel Apple to hand over the key. Whether or not that key has been created is irrelevant to the fact that if the DOJ wins this case, it is one step closer to mandating that Apple make all their phones unlockable.

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#105

Post by studentrob »

saurik wrote: post #69
acqq wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll even go so far as to say that we actually already have all the tools for this lying around for the iPhone 4, and with only minimal changes made by even less qualified engineers they would probably work on the iPhone 5C. Then there's even less reason to use All Writs to make Apple do it, unless it's to make the precedent to force the device makers to backdoor their products. Just do it, for all of us, make that…

You seem to still fundamentally misunderstand the situation, as you seem to be challenging me to build the tool today and get Apple off the hook, as if that was all that mattered. I can build the tool. What I can't do is sign the result. The only thing any of us are missing is the 4096-bit RSA encryption key used to sign the firmware. The way we load this tool onto the iPhone 4 is using a vulnerability in their bootl…

It sounds like you could really make use of that key

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#106

Post by camillomiller »

camillomiller wrote: post #101
saurik wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People in Cupertino probably think that's basically your mission :D (I don't, though). Good, because anyone who thinks that even casually is either completely uninformed or an idiot :/. (I vaguely apologize for the bluntness, but this is an insinuated attack even with the statement that you don't believe it, at which point one would question why you brought it up in the first place.) > Why are they the only one to…

I'm a non-native speaker Jay, don't imply insinuations, because I'm usually not so subtle with my language. That was just a bad joke. Believe me, I do think your work is phenomenal. Period. I'm sorry I've never been to one of your talks. If you'll ever do one in Berlin in the future I won't certainly miss it. :) That said, I understand your point but I don't really agree. You're saying Apple is doing all this while b…

@saurik:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11171131

:)

Post reply on HN