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Running 50km after 82h of fasting

blog.xavivives.com

101–110 of 123 posts

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#101
Certainly an interesting experiment.

As somebody who only engages in "moderate" endurance activities (bicycle rides ~100 miles) I can relate the difference diet makes for me on long activities.

Endurance athletes speak of a thing called the "bonk"[0] - a point beyond which continued activity becomes much more difficult. This state is due to the exhaustion of glycogen stores in the body.

I've encountered this only a few times, but it's a really interesting phenomenon. In times I do not prepare well enough, I just run out of "energy." Everything gets harder, and I don't recover from it. It's not the case that I cannot continue, but continued exertion feels much more difficult. I feel mental fatigue as well, and I have felt "light headed" in this state.

This is why it is recommended to consume carbohydrates when engaging in endurance activities. It's not that you can't continue on ketosis, it's that you continue in a very suboptimal manner, and in something like cycling (where you are moving quite quickly) a sensation of light-headedness can be exceptionally dangerous.

Incidentally, the rate of depletion of glycogen stores is relative to the intensity of the activity. Operating further below the aerobic threshold will allow one to deplete the glycogen stores more slowly. If the OP is in good shape, this probably played a role in his success, as he might be running at a less intense pace than he would be capable of were he consuming carbohydrates.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitting_the_wall

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#103

I've played with ketosis. You can verify your body is in a state of ketosis using "keto sticks" that you pee on. They change color and prove that your body is outputting ketones. That's also what causes your breath to smell like something died (my wife's comment). One of the leading thinkers on this is Tim Noakes who has written some excellent literature on the subject and is a keen runner. He became famous for "Lore…

So, I played with ketosis and lost. 7 years ago I weighed 260lbs, having converted a once fit and muscular physique into lard with the help of my desk and startup. I decided to do something about this, and to simultaneously run an experiment to determine my general metabolic rate and baseline nutritional requirements. To do this, I stuck myself on a fixed daily 700kcal diet, ran 15km a day, and got on with life as us…

Sounds like you played with starvation and lost.

Ketosis does not require or imply a severe caloric deficit. It requires a very low carbohydrate intake, but you can eat a maintenance level of calories and be in ketosis.

None of the standard guidance (e.g. [1]) for a weight loss program using a ketogenic diet advocates such a severe deficit. Presuming you're a male of average height, 700 kcal is about a 75% deficit. By all appearances, that was the source of your troubles, not keto per se.

I'm glad you recovered all right!

[1] http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#104

I did not see a doctor. Not before, not after. The truth is that even if I had seen one I wouldn't take in account her opinion anyway. The current standards for nutrition are based on a diet rich in carbohydrates. Any response from a doctor (at least the ones I have access to) will discourage this event. It just doesn't fit on their models. Plus they have to play safe. I appreciate all the people who are concern abou…

here is scientific explanation for some of this:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/strength-and-endurance-train...

and

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/strength-and-endurance-train...

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#105
Not something I would try, or would have tried at what I suppose is his age. I will say a runner in training can get into ketosis with no need for fasting--visiting the downwind side of marathon finish chutes would probably convince you of this.

I did "hit the wall" a couple of times, but my diet leading up to the race was no different from that before other races. In one case it was inadequate training. In a couple of others it was setting out at too fast a pace. Now, that is not to say that I felt good in the others--I felt awful but bearably awful.

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#106

I did not see a doctor. Not before, not after. The truth is that even if I had seen one I wouldn't take in account her opinion anyway. The current standards for nutrition are based on a diet rich in carbohydrates. Any response from a doctor (at least the ones I have access to) will discourage this event. It just doesn't fit on their models. Plus they have to play safe. I appreciate all the people who are concern abou…

Still, it might have been interesting to have your blood work done before and after to see what the changes were. There's compelling evidence for fasting. See Micheal Mosley's Eat, Fast and Live Longer documentary:

https://vimeo.com/103656060

Personally, I'm following a 5:2 intermittent fast this year while also maintaining 63 mi/week running, including 9 mi on the days I fast.

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#107
post #106

I did not see a doctor. Not before, not after. The truth is that even if I had seen one I wouldn't take in account her opinion anyway. The current standards for nutrition are based on a diet rich in carbohydrates. Any response from a doctor (at least the ones I have access to) will discourage this event. It just doesn't fit on their models. Plus they have to play safe. I appreciate all the people who are concern abou…

Still, it might have been interesting to have your blood work done before and after to see what the changes were. There's compelling evidence for fasting. See Micheal Mosley's Eat, Fast and Live Longer documentary: https://vimeo.com/103656060 Personally, I'm following a 5:2 intermittent fast this year while also maintaining 63 mi/week running, including 9 mi on the days I fast.

  See Micheal Mosley's Eat, Fast and Live Longer
Also see Mosley's The Truth About Exercise:

http://www.kpbs.org/news/2013/apr/08/truth-about-exercise-mi...

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#108
post #16

The whole blog feels like a confused agenda masquerading as hand-wavey pseudo-science. Do not like. Ketosis is really quite well studied at this point, I don't really think this adds anything to the mix. Also why conflate fasting and ketogenics?

> Also why conflate fasting and ketogenics? He made the distinction between ketosis, a ketosis-inducing diet and fasting as far as I could tell: > I’m suspicious that there are big differences between nutritional ketosis (induced by reducing the intake of high glycemic index foods) and ketosis induced from fasting. In other runs done in nutritional ketosis I didn’t feel that energetic (but it’s hard to compare since…

Ketosis should have a uniform effect, whether induced by fasting or keto eating. What makes the former more fatiguing, psychological effects aside, is the lack of instantly-available free fatty acids.

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#109

I did not see a doctor. Not before, not after. The truth is that even if I had seen one I wouldn't take in account her opinion anyway. The current standards for nutrition are based on a diet rich in carbohydrates. Any response from a doctor (at least the ones I have access to) will discourage this event. It just doesn't fit on their models. Plus they have to play safe. I appreciate all the people who are concern abou…

here is scientific explanation for some of this: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/strength-and-endurance-train... and http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/strength-and-endurance-train...

Everything on that site is subscribe-walled (one could use a phony email, I suppose), and even his cookie disclosure has a phony link. I stopped there.

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can, perhaps, train yourself to burn fat more efficiently which helps. e.g. http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/using-low-carbohy...

Cool. Though your linked article still states that peak fat burn output is still lower than peak carb burn output and that high intensity still is best served by carb rich diet.

"high intensity" is sprinting, not distance running.
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