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Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

nytimes.com

101–110 of 141 posts

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#101

Many of the posts have to do with the expectations of business, society, etc. Maybe we parents have something to do with it too. I should be happy. I'm educated, have interesting and rewarding work to do, have a roof over my head, and get to play music on the side. I've got two great kids, who are both smarter than me. What's wrong with that? Why should I be neurotic about success? Why should push myself and my kids…

> Because I can see that my class -- the middle class -- is vanishing, so the expectations of my generation are no longer valid. Get an OK degree in something worthwhile and work hard. Gone. I literally followed exactly the same education and career path as my father. That's gone.

This attitude (which I hear all the time, not just from you) reminds me of what's been going on in East Asia for decades now: the ultra pressure cooker life-defining once-a-year college entrance exam system and the accompanying high pressure studying environment preceding it (and much like in SV, students do kill themselves from stress). Students in these countries (Japan, Korea, and Taiwan in particular from what I can tell -- not so sure about China) are pushed so hard because frankly it is correct that the college you go to largely defines your QoL for the rest of your life (more so if you are in the humanities vs engineering).

You often work at a corporation for life, and they take the vast majority of employees as new grads. The best corporations often have cutoffs based on the school you attend. Online registration sites for recruiting info sessions will show up as full if you say you attend a mediocre college, but will show up as having seats open if you say you attend the University of Tokyo.

Whether this perception of what I call the "scarcity of success" for students is real or not in the States, I frankly do not know. But I like to say that perception is the reality by which you live. If this is the perception that parents have, then their behavior in response to this perception is logical. They behave this way because they truly want the best for their children (Tiger mom behavior and Asian immigrant parents driving their children towards stable high paying professions like medicine is a direct result of their own struggles as immigrants and lack of clarity into their future financial stability).

Also,

From article: "Many college students struggle with critical thinking, a fact that hasn’t escaped their professors"

From parent: "Another thing I've noticed is that the school curriculum is more intensive and consuming, but not necessarily more advanced.

I used to be quite creative in elementary school. Loved to draw, tinker with electronics, make stuff, etc. But then I "woke up" in middle school and for the first time in my life learned to study, extremely hard. I went to a private school in Silicon Valley that (according to a recent thread in my alma mater's mailing list) was described by one parent as "[being] somewhat notorious for pushing the kids too hard." I had 6 hours of homework every day (100% of it was rote drills as parent says), after 2-3 hours of sports and extra curriculars, every day. I did this for 6 years, 7th through 12th grade. I graduated near the top of my class and was accepted into one of the best colleges in the country. I largely continued this behavior in college.

At one moment of clarity in my mid 20's, I realized that I had lost the creativity that I once possessed. I excel at figuring out how to optimize and perform in a defined system. I am now quite terrible at thinking outside of predefined problems. Looking back now, I realize that I would have made quite a good banker or management consultant (which is where most of my peers ended up after college).

I think this is related to the article saying:

Many college students struggle with critical thinking, a fact that hasn’t escaped their professors

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#102
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, so the "law" as stated in the Wikipedia article is not correct.

> Like all similar "laws" (e.g., Murphy's Law), Betteridge's law of headlines is not always true.[3][4] From the article.

"Is Betteridge's Law Always True?"

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason the system wants you to work hard is because they get a share of your labour for every part you are successful above subsistence. They get this through debt issuance, primarily via land prices. Fiat money costs absolutely zero to produce, they give it out freely and in return you pledge to give part of your labour for 30 years. If land prices were far lower we'd all be working 3 or 4 days a week. Employers…

The land thing is crazy. Buying at the right time means you get paid to live in your house. Then when you sell, they charge you capital gains so you can't buy the same house back with the money you just got. The other thing that's crazy is how ridiculously cheap the same stuff is in countries with lower land prices, like South East Asia. A nice apartment with a pool on the beach is 1/10 the price of San Francisco. Th…

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Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason the system wants you to work hard is because they get a share of your labour for every part you are successful above subsistence. They get this through debt issuance, primarily via land prices. Fiat money costs absolutely zero to produce, they give it out freely and in return you pledge to give part of your labour for 30 years. If land prices were far lower we'd all be working 3 or 4 days a week. Employers…

The land thing is crazy. Buying at the right time means you get paid to live in your house. Then when you sell, they charge you capital gains so you can't buy the same house back with the money you just got. The other thing that's crazy is how ridiculously cheap the same stuff is in countries with lower land prices, like South East Asia. A nice apartment with a pool on the beach is 1/10 the price of San Francisco. Th…

I doubt that land has that much effect on pricing differences. Farms in china have similar implied value/acre as ones in the US (http://www.usda.gov/nass/PUBS/TODAYRPT/land0815.pdf + http://www.chinabusinessreview.com/rural-chinas-nascent-land...)

The main drivers of developing countries costing more is going to come down to better infrastructure (which costs more money) and stricter regulation. Sure, being able to drink water from your tap, have a low risk of being injured at work, having high food safety and a strong social net leads to higher costs, but to most of us, it's completely worth it.

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#105
post #82

Many of the posts have to do with the expectations of business, society, etc. Maybe we parents have something to do with it too. I should be happy. I'm educated, have interesting and rewarding work to do, have a roof over my head, and get to play music on the side. I've got two great kids, who are both smarter than me. What's wrong with that? Why should I be neurotic about success? Why should push myself and my kids…

> I recently found a copy of my 12th grade public school math textbook. More than half of the problems are proofs. Today there are no proofs. This was a big issue for me when I entered college. We did proofs freshman year of high school as part of geometry, but they were so simplistic that I didn't know how to write a good, real proof. Then, when I got to college math, I struggled for a long while figuring out what I…

I hope the proofs made math more fun for you, not less. The similarity between proofs and programs was something that attracted my interest in both.

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#106
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand how this makes any sense, at all. If the town raises the property taxes on my rental, guess what, the rent is going to go up at least as much as the tax increase. This is only true if the rent is based on the cost of the unit in terms of purchase price and upkeep. That's true in lower cost-of-living areas, but in expensive areas, the rent is high primarily because demand is outstripping supply, n…

This doesn't add up. If rent is so much higher than purchase plus upkeep, people will borrow money and buy, safe in the knowledge that they can just become a landlord and be cash-flow positive at any time. Or investors will simply buy the cheap properties and rent them. The demand for investment properties will drive up the purchase price and parity will be reached. This is why house prices are just as insane in Sili…

That's not what GP is claiming.

He's claiming that a land tax would not be passed on to renters if instituted, because rent is being driven demand-side (what renters are willing to pay) not supply-side (cost to provide a house to people). Any attempt to increase rent would result in a lower demand by renters, meaning the market would fail to clear -- the rent would then need to be re-lowered.

But you are correct, that rent shouldn't be higher than purchase plus upkeep. In the event of a land tax, rent holds constant but upkeep increases (taxes); consequently, for the equation to hold, purchases prices (and thus land values) will fall.

And that's why this is so politically impossible to pass, even though it is considered the "least bad" tax economically. Land owners would see their assets sufficiently fall in value if a land tax were enacted.

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#107
I'm late to the discussion, but my kids go/went to Irvington.

What the article does not mention, which I feel is material to the content, is that 70% of the students at Irvington are Asian, and most of those have immigrant parents. The majority of those parents work in technical fields and have advanced degrees in science and technology. This is material in my opinion, because the demographics of Irvington do not represent the demographics of the US, which readers may not realize.

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#108
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We think of this as a problem only of the urban and suburban elite, but in traveling the country to report on this issue, I have seen that this stress has a powerful effect on children across the socioeconomic spectrum. I didn't read your subtext in the article. I'm not convinced it accounts for very much. Also, Asian Americans make up 5% of the population. What do you think "Asian" has to do with the topic of this…

If it were explicit, it wouldn't be "sub" text. You really do need to know a bit of context about the state of high school & higher ed admissions before the phenomenon they talk about makes sense. The NYT is kind of notorious for running editorials that only make sense as far as why they would be running, and at this particular time, if you have these pieces of information. Stanford is 1/4 Asian, plus another 9% "int…

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Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#109
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The theory is that participation in sports and music will be the crucial factor that gets those teenagers admitted to elite colleges. There's some truth to that, but probably not quite as much as many parents seem to think.

There is a common misconception that elite schools want "well rounded" students. In fact they want well rounded student bodies , composed of extremely lopsided students who excel in individual domains. It is far better for your child to be a world-class swimmer, for example, than for her to be a participant in swimming, tennis, student government, the school newspaper, etc. Parents urge their kids to take up as many…

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Re: Is the Drive for Success Making Our Children Sick?

#110

Many of the posts have to do with the expectations of business, society, etc. Maybe we parents have something to do with it too. I should be happy. I'm educated, have interesting and rewarding work to do, have a roof over my head, and get to play music on the side. I've got two great kids, who are both smarter than me. What's wrong with that? Why should I be neurotic about success? Why should push myself and my kids…

I think every parent has same concern - middle class is vanishing, normal degree will not be enough, etc.. I have read in one of the book "65 percent of children entering grade school this year will end up working in careers that haven't even been invented yet" (I know data science is consider new field, it is just derivation of CS). At the same time, if we feel our kids are smarter they should be able to figure out…

But 72 percent of statistics are made up on the spot.
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