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U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

computerworld.com

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Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#101

Post by ashwinaj »

latj wrote: post #91
ashwinaj wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am replying to those who make claims that H1B workers are being paid below market rate, hence driving down salaries. There is a minimum wage requirement as I mentioned which is approved by the state department of labor. Again, these "driving down wages" doesn't hold water when the H1B salaries are public information.

Ok, we've heard your proposition. Now make some arguments. Now show some evidence. For example, mean pay for a software developer in state of California is $119,970 according to Bureau of Labor Statistics [1]. What is the minimum wage required for a H1B software developer in California [2]? What is the actual mean pay? My instinct is that you are correct and H1B visas are not driving down salaries- but thats just a g…

> "What is the minimum wage required for a H1B software developer in California [2]? What is the actual mean pay?"

How many years of experience (0,5,10,15,20?)? What is the education level required (PhD vs bachelors/masters)? It's not as simple as "H1B software developer in California" nor are the salaries. They vary between companies (eg., Netflix pays more than Google)

In any case, here you go: http://h1bdata.info/ You can check what your H1B colleagues make based on their job title.

Edit: To x0x0, I'm not going to parse out data for each and every company, I have a day job you see :) I've worked for four companies (public and private), and I see that the wages are comparable to local workers (of those who chose to share their wages) and the established market rate by the state dept. of labor for the said job title. Somewhat anecdotal? Yes. It is definitely better than a blanket "H1B drives down wages".

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#102

Post by serge2k »

jleader wrote: post #76
ashwinaj wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "who were at the mercy of the whims of management" With H1B you are not tied to the same employer, you are free to leave the sponsoring employer and go elsewhere. I don't know about the E-1 visa. Again, if you feel they were being paid below the market rate, you can check up the bulletin board to make sure.

My understanding (from H1B coworkers and HR managers in previous jobs) was that the H1B is transferable to another company IF the other company agrees to sponsor it, and there's a fair amount of paperwork, hassle, and uncertainty to effect the transfer. That has to translate into at least a small salary discrepancy between H1B holders and permanent-resident employees.

> That has to translate into at least a small salary discrepancy between H1B holders and permanent-resident employees.

or it just gets accepted as cost of doing business with this person. Which is entirely reasonable (you spend a couple thousand to get everything transferred, not that much long run).

isn't the problem that if an h1-b worker gets fired they are screwed (have to leave)? I know with a TN that's the case and it sucks.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#103

Post by Quanticles »

I wonder if this is a side-effect of the current silicon-valley investment scene. There are lots of low-capital startup opportunities, so who wants to fund the high-capital startups in computer hardware? There have been very few computer hardware startups the past few years, and that might have an effect on overall innovation and growth.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#104

Post by BurningFrog »

learc83 wrote: post #81
ashwinaj wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "who were at the mercy of the whims of management" With H1B you are not tied to the same employer, you are free to leave the sponsoring employer and go elsewhere. I don't know about the E-1 visa. Again, if you feel they were being paid below the market rate, you can check up the bulletin board to make sure.

There is still an element of captivity above what a citizen or resident faces--staying in country is contingent on quickly finding another employer who will sponsor you. If a native employee is fired, they lose their job and probably go on unemployment while the look for another one. If an H-1B employee is fired, they get deported. Employers know this, and they treat H-1B employees accordingly.

> If an H-1B employee is fired, they get deported.

That was definitely not true during my time on H1B. The feds could legally deport you, but they never bothered to.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#105

Post by super2 »

First they came for the Auto workers, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not an Auto worker, and I felt they were overpaid and sort of lazy.

Then they came for the Electronics manufacturing, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a line worker, and the line workers need to be in high-value fields.

Then they came for the Electrical Engineers, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a EE, and it seems sort of racist to take jobs from Chinese.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#106

Post by secondtimeuse »

ashwinaj wrote: post #96
secondtimeuse wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please This is a false dichotomy and typically parroted by upper middle class indians who had enough resources to pay for graduate school in USA. The system could use tweaks and points to grade applications but you are presentin a very naive a class based view of the situation. You might feel that you could convince immigration hardliners by this argument but in reality most are motivated by ideology rather than rati…

Sorry? How is scrutinizing applications for employment a naive view of the situation? Isn't it obvious that if an application is not genuine it should be cancelled (eg., working for a "client", where the "client" is a shell company)? I'm not trying to convince anyone and I personally don't care what other Indians (as I'm Indian) think about my opinion. I only represent my opinion not theirs (and they are free to have…

Do I get extra points regarding my opinion if I am native American, what if my ancestors were aboard Mayflower or were grudgingly accepted as Irish or if they were slaves. United States has a complex racial history which includes laws such the Chinese Exclusion act (something that lead Supreme Court to affirm birthright citizenship). To claim that by virtue of not being an American Citizen I have no right to offer an informed opinion based on moral analysis is ridiculous. What next according to your logic then any black man should not have considered himself to be an equal or should have offered an opinion until civil rights were changed. Or no one should have complained about Hitler. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound. United States is a unique country of immigrants with a chequeed past.

With an argument like this no doubt you are parroting stupidity. Wake up Ashwin, life is not just about advancin career.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#107

Post by zeroxfe »

coliveira wrote: post #73
zeroxfe wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of these things could be easily overcome with better training. I think 1, 2, and 4, requires lots of real world experience in addition to training. > The time and effort they spend in interviewing could be very well spent on teaching best practices to new employees Assuming that just teaching best practices is all that is required, which I strongly disagree with, a lot of companies (especially startups) don't h…

Your arguments clearly contradict each other: "The marketplace is fiercely competitive, and they typically need people on the ground right away." " The time it takes for a new hire at Google to get productive is usually about 6 months to a year." It cannot be both ways as you please. Either these companies are investing in training or not. If they are, then things like requirements gathering, creating specs, and prov…

> Your arguments clearly contradict each other

They don't. It's kinda disingenuous to pick phrases out of context to make a point.

But let me clarify anyway:

- smaller companies typically cannot afford to train, they need people on the ground right away.

- larger companies typically do train. Almost every large company I've worked with has dedicated training groups, programs, and staff.

- experience is more valuable than training, which almost all companies filter for

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#108

Post by x0x0 »

ashwinaj wrote: post #101
latj wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, we've heard your proposition. Now make some arguments. Now show some evidence. For example, mean pay for a software developer in state of California is $119,970 according to Bureau of Labor Statistics [1]. What is the minimum wage required for a H1B software developer in California [2]? What is the actual mean pay? My instinct is that you are correct and H1B visas are not driving down salaries- but thats just a g…

> "What is the minimum wage required for a H1B software developer in California [2]? What is the actual mean pay?" How many years of experience (0,5,10,15,20?)? What is the education level required (PhD vs bachelors/masters)? It's not as simple as "H1B software developer in California" nor are the salaries. They vary between companies (eg., Netflix pays more than Google) In any case, here you go: http://h1bdata.info/…

iow, you continue to assert without proof that h1b immigration doesn't constrain or reduce wages.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#109

Post by ashwinaj »

secondtimeuse wrote: post #106
ashwinaj wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry? How is scrutinizing applications for employment a naive view of the situation? Isn't it obvious that if an application is not genuine it should be cancelled (eg., working for a "client", where the "client" is a shell company)? I'm not trying to convince anyone and I personally don't care what other Indians (as I'm Indian) think about my opinion. I only represent my opinion not theirs (and they are free to have…

Do I get extra points regarding my opinion if I am native American, what if my ancestors were aboard Mayflower or were grudgingly accepted as Irish or if they were slaves. United States has a complex racial history which includes laws such the Chinese Exclusion act (something that lead Supreme Court to affirm birthright citizenship). To claim that by virtue of not being an American Citizen I have no right to offer an…

Yes of course, how could I forget that an H1B worker is going through the same plight as a colored person pre-civil rights time and what Jews faced during Hitler's reign :) Wow! Hyperbole at it's best.

> "To claim that by virtue of not being an American Citizen I have no right to offer an informed opinion based on moral analysis"

Again, I never said you can't have an opinion. You have your opinion and I have mine. We agree to disagree and I like to live in reality rather than hyperbole.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#110

Post by jimmaswell »

jackcosgrove wrote: post #88
ydkditfi wrote: post #2

Reminder that "STEM" was just a buzzword designed to flood the skill-intensive labor markets with a generation of idealistic youngsters, all with the intention of driving down wages. There never was a labor shortage, or as it's occasionally framed, a "talent" shortage.

STEM is misnomer. Ever met an unemployed or underemployed biologist, ultrasound tech, environmental engineer, or statistician? The real sweet spot is PI - physics and informatics. These roles are unique in that they can be explosively productive and create more jobs than were there at the start. PI, or "STEM" is more than a buzzword.

I've often read in physics communities that explicitly getting a job in "physics" is pretty hard outside academia, is that wrong?
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