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Repair is a Radical Act

patagonia.com

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Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#101

Post by quanticle »

pjc50 wrote: post #55
quanticle wrote: post #43

While some companies, like Ricoh, DeWalt, Caterpillar and Lenovo have made repair and remanufacturing a staple of their business model, This is why I continue to buy Lenovo, even though it can be argued that overall quality and durability of a Thinkpad isn't what it used to be when IBM still owned the brand. When I buy a Thinkpad (like the T440s I bought last year), I am reasonably assured that if something breaks, I…

You're unconcerned about Superfish etc?

The first thing I do on any laptop is wipe the OS and reinstall Windows from scratch. I didn't know about Superfish at the time, but I've been burned enough by bundled crapware in the past that I always include the price of a fresh copy of Windows in the price of the laptop I'm buying.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#102

Post by sokoloff »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #86
sokoloff wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do not buy that you cannot make a good looking cell phone that is sturdy and allows for component replacement. You absolutely can. And your competitor can build one that's a little bit smaller, a little bit lighter, a little bit more beautiful, and you'll be competing on sustainability while your competitor is competing on "new and cooler". Unfortunately, I'd bet on your competitor in that scenario.

> And your competitor can build one that's a little bit smaller, a little bit lighter, a little bit more beautiful People keep saying this because it's the excuse given by companies who do it (and who may have ulterior motives). But is there any technical reason why it should be true? How much "thickness" does a modular battery connector really add? More to the point, it assumes that all customers want exactly the sa…

You're absolutely right that the market isn't homogenous in terms of what they want.

I would suggest that Otterbox and Lifeproof have taken most of the "12% heavier and more durable" market today.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#103

Post by pmoriarty »

quanticle wrote: post #101
pjc50 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're unconcerned about Superfish etc?

The first thing I do on any laptop is wipe the OS and reinstall Windows from scratch. I didn't know about Superfish at the time, but I've been burned enough by bundled crapware in the past that I always include the price of a fresh copy of Windows in the price of the laptop I'm buying.

I would do that, but I don't want to pay Microsoft twice: once for the Windows that came installed on the laptop and once again for another copy of Windows that's actually installable.

I miss the days when computers came with OS installation disks. it's like you actually owned the software.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#104

Post by mattnewport »

yourapostasy wrote: post #84
mattnewport wrote: post #24

I appreciate companies making repairable products, providing repair manuals and avoiding proprietary screws etc. but I think it's overly simplistic to say repair is the default right choice. It makes sense to strive for efficiency. In some cases repair is the most efficient choice but in others it is not. There are always tradeoffs and sometimes durability and repairability are over-engineering for a particular use c…

It is your right to believe what you asserted. My experience points me in a different direction; my comments are not directed as criticism, just offering a different perspective. See my comment below that I'm well aware there are personalities for whom the perspective I offer are not suited for. > Prices act as a mechanism to incorporate information on efficiency of resource use and cheap disposable items are cheap i…

I think you somewhat misunderstand how prices work to convey information. Price on its own has never provided sufficient information to make a purchasing decision. As a one dimensional, discrete numeric value, how could it? It is always necessary for the buyer to use additional information to determine what a particular purchase is worth to them. If it is priced below the value they determine it has to them then it may be a worthwhile purchase. Wide availability of product information and consumer reviews on the internet makes finding the information to estimate a purchase's value to a given individual easier and this makes the price mechanism work more effectively.

What price does convey quite effectively in a hard to fake way is the value to the seller and thus some indication of the resources that went into the manufacture of a product. All else being equal, a more durable product will tend to have a higher price reflecting the greater resources required to produce it.

I don't disagree with much else that you say, with the caveat that I think buying say a wood plane makes sense for relatively few individuals unless they happen to derive particular pleasure from woodwork as a hobby or intend to do it as a business. The 'sharing economy' is a way the internet makes it possible for more people to amortize the cost between them and does change that calculation somewhat by making more efficient use of resources.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#105

Post by pmoriarty »

sokoloff wrote: post #73
acd wrote: post #56

This brings be to the area of new cell phones. Not good for the environment global warming. Consumer electronics are designed to be replaced which is bad for the environment. See planned Obsolescence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence I do not buy that you cannot make a good looking cell phone that is sturdy and allows for component replacement. The Apple Macbook unibody 2009-2012 has metal screws, yo…

> I do not buy that you cannot make a good looking cell phone that is sturdy and allows for component replacement. You absolutely can. And your competitor can build one that's a little bit smaller, a little bit lighter, a little bit more beautiful, and you'll be competing on sustainability while your competitor is competing on "new and cooler". Unfortunately, I'd bet on your competitor in that scenario.

You're forgetting the recent "phablet" fad. Many consumers seem to have developed a taste for bigger screens and bigger phones.

There's long been a wide range of phone sizes to cater to different tastes and different needs. So making a bigger phone with more desirable features may well be a winning strategy.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#106

Post by quanticle »

pmoriarty wrote: post #103
quanticle wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first thing I do on any laptop is wipe the OS and reinstall Windows from scratch. I didn't know about Superfish at the time, but I've been burned enough by bundled crapware in the past that I always include the price of a fresh copy of Windows in the price of the laptop I'm buying.

I would do that, but I don't want to pay Microsoft twice: once for the Windows that came installed on the laptop and once again for another copy of Windows that's actually installable. I miss the days when computers came with OS installation disks. it's like you actually owned the software.

That's a fair point, but there's nothing stopping you from wiping the OS and installing Linux, either. I'm limited to Windows for work reasons, otherwise I'd have gone that route myself.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#107

Post by sliverstorm »

pjc50 wrote: post #55
quanticle wrote: post #43

While some companies, like Ricoh, DeWalt, Caterpillar and Lenovo have made repair and remanufacturing a staple of their business model, This is why I continue to buy Lenovo, even though it can be argued that overall quality and durability of a Thinkpad isn't what it used to be when IBM still owned the brand. When I buy a Thinkpad (like the T440s I bought last year), I am reasonably assured that if something breaks, I…

You're unconcerned about Superfish etc?

Where do your priorities lie? If there is no suitable laptop which is both completely secure and exceedingly user-servicable & repairable for many years to come, you may be forced to choose.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#108

Post by gerbilly »

famousactress wrote: post #27

I want to add an anecdote to inject some reality into this discussion. I bought a wetsuit from Patagonia in 2009 (I think). They were super new to the wetsuit industry and I paid 300+$ during their "half price" sale. Full price was ~600$ and 300 was the price for the top of the line "money is no object" wetsuit. For someone who surfs a lot (me) wetsuits traditionally last about three years/seasons. Last year my patag…

Thanks for posting that!

I wear an Xcel wetsuit right now, but based on your story I think my next one will be from Patagonia.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#109

Post by pmoriarty »

quanticle wrote: post #106
pmoriarty wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would do that, but I don't want to pay Microsoft twice: once for the Windows that came installed on the laptop and once again for another copy of Windows that's actually installable. I miss the days when computers came with OS installation disks. it's like you actually owned the software.

That's a fair point, but there's nothing stopping you from wiping the OS and installing Linux, either. I'm limited to Windows for work reasons, otherwise I'd have gone that route myself.

I'm a huge Linux fan, and have happily used it for quite a long time. Sadly, however, not all the programs I need to use are available for Linux. Tax programs, for example. There are various other niches as well, where Linux hasn't really caught up yet.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#110

Post by ptaipale »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #71
ptaipale wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more that in countries with social security, people aren't forced to work on such low wages (or more precisely, on low income as a self-employed person). If people have their rent and food and medical care paid for, and have access to a spectrum of free public services, it's not worthwhile to take the toll of labouring and fixing the clothes and shoes for others. I can typically buy new, good quality sho…

That's where basic income would shine. Both social security and repair stalls! People that do it for socialising and odd buck.

That basic income still has to be funded somehow, and even without it the public services (plus some self-employed or begging income) of modern welfare state provide a standard of living that is far better than the income of large numbers of people in poor countries. Opening the borders with current welfare structures (or any "basic income" that covers everyone) will lead to insolvency of the public sector and loss of confidence to government by the people who pay taxes.

Welfare system or open borders, choose one. This is a bit simplistic, but there's no escape from this problem.

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