Double paid traffic • Hacker News Board

Re: Double paid traffic

#101

Post by scurvy » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 1:01 AM UTC

fiber wrote: post #99

scurvy wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are reach products that will help you connect and peer to providers in remote IX's. You can peer with them directly, then have their traffic ride on your network all the way back. MPLS is a wonderful thing. Yeah, you'll still need a lot of transit to reach people, but you can also peer with who you want.

Provided "who you want" wants to peer with you. Peering is a mutual relationship after all.

Most public peering IX's have route servers which have "most" of the routes available on the exchange. Peer with that and you have almost all of the routes available on the exchange. Of course, some entities might not advertise everything to the route server, but most do in my experience.

Re: Double paid traffic

#102

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 1:03 AM UTC

ullus12 wrote: post #65

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. What's the logic here? Because a business is trying to reduce its expenses, it's wrong on any matter by default? 2. You are aware that DTAG does not peer at DE-CIX, so whether "peering is most dense" there has exactly no influence on whether Hetzner gets good connectivity to DTAG? 3. You are aware that Hetzner does peer at DE-CIX with 200 Gbit/s, with an open peering policy? 4. You are aware that Hetzner even peer…

1. The idea was to make an example of the company favoring cost effevtiveness over quality. which may not be bad ... but it should underline the cheap-assiness. 2. dtag is ofc present in frankfurt and at de-cix, with little capacity for public peerings as mentioned. This and your 3/4 each make sense, as they represent a legit business interest for the different sides. Hetzner preffering cheapass open and dtag preffer…

1. How exactly is labor, land, power, or dark fiber lower quality in east Germany (if we ignore the fact that Nuremberg doesn't really qualify for being cheap nor for being in east Germany)? If anything, the subsidies might suggest that operating a business is actually more expensive, which is why it's being subsidised.

5. You are also aware that they operate some 170 Gbit/s of private peering?

6. Which costs exactly are they externalizing with regards to peering in your opinion? So far, your argument seems to be "they don't pay as much as DTAG would like them to, therefore, they are externalizing the difference between DTAG's wishes and what they are willing to pay" - which isn't exactly how you determine externalities.

Re: Double paid traffic

#103

Post by herbst » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 8:39 AM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #94

tajen wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and where are the JS libraries that show a warning to customers of networks operating at lower capacity? All ISPs have available bandwidth for speedtest.com, but when it comes to Youtube or Netflix, it requires a warning.

SpeedOf.me works pretty well, but it would be nice to have a browser extension that notified me whenever a site loaded more slowly for me than others in the region on different ISP.

Thats a great idea actually. I may also try to track ISP and times on one of my more popular websites.

Re: Double paid traffic

#104

Post by Cakez0r » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 8:41 AM UTC

rhino369 wrote: post #78

Cakez0r wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Hertzner aren't pushing data onto DTAG's network. The ISP's customers are requesting it.

It doesn't matter that the customers are requesting it or if they want it. I request my Amazon package, but amazon still pays for delivery--even if amazon charges me for the shipping, UPS or Fed Ex get paid by Amazon. The internet works sort of like that, except small ISPs will still pay to receive since their network doesn't interconnect with everyone else. ISPs have always charged CDNs for access to their network.…

It's more like if you pay for next day delivery but the delivery company decide that their delivery trucks aren't large enough to keep up with next day deliveries, so they then ask Amazon to buy them larger trucks or their customers' shipments are going to be late.

Re: Double paid traffic

#105

Post by Nyr » Thu, Dec 03, 2015, 3:15 AM UTC

scurvy wrote: post #84

Nyr wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, since you will be forced to use transit to reach many of your visitors. You don't even have the choice of direct connections to all of the world with just a single server in Germany.

There are reach products that will help you connect and peer to providers in remote IX's. You can peer with them directly, then have their traffic ride on your network all the way back. MPLS is a wonderful thing. Yeah, you'll still need a lot of transit to reach people, but you can also peer with who you want.

He was asking about Hetzner, he has a single server and obviously doesn't operate the network.

Re: Double paid traffic

#106

Post by Nyr » Thu, Dec 03, 2015, 3:24 AM UTC

scurvy wrote: post #101

fiber wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Provided "who you want" wants to peer with you. Peering is a mutual relationship after all.

Most public peering IX's have route servers which have "most" of the routes available on the exchange. Peer with that and you have almost all of the routes available on the exchange. Of course, some entities might not advertise everything to the route server, but most do in my experience.

> Most public peering IX's have route servers which have "most" of the routes available on the exchange.

Doesn't matter when we are talking about DTAG, which is the dominant ISP and will not peer for free. Yeah, you can peer with a lot of smaller networks which is nice, but not enough.

Same applies for the US market where the big players refuse to peer.