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My life after 44 years in prison

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Re: My life after 44 years in prison

#101
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well friend, you haven't met my fists then. You might change your mind on fists not being a deadly weapon.

Long time ago, someone told me that assaulting someone as a trained black belt martial artist makes your assaults 'assault with a deadly weapon'. So they actually might of made the adjustment in those cases. I was 10 years old when I was told this, so big grain of salt.

That's the point I was trying to make but I guess it flew over a bunch of people's heads. If you watch MMA, fists are absolutely deadly and can knock people out and severely hurt them in seconds.

Re: My life after 44 years in prison

#102
post #81

What I've started to realize about people is that you can't influence them all with deterrents. No matter how long the sentence, or how permanent the memory of the justice system (8 months in prison for robbery, 50 years later), none of that is bad enough to actually stop people committing crimes in the first place. Essentially, people aren't rational. They don't act in their own self interests. I saw this also when…

There's a decent amount of experimental evidence to counter this realisation though. The yakuza basically never carry guns around anymore because the charges for carrying around a handgun are so high that it's just not worth it. We always say that "well if someone wants a gun they're gonna get it", which is pretty true. But some deterrents can slow down the transition from " I don't like that guy" to "I'm going to ki…

The made Yakuza guys have underlings who carry guns and do violence for them though with the understanding they are to do the time if caught, so in effect nothing has changed.

The criminals shooting at each other weekly where I live are all 18-25yr old drug delivery drivers working for established bosses they clearly aren't rational or else they'd realize a few thousand a week isn't worth life in prison. Plenty of these guys get caught but there doesn't seem to be any shortage of violent replacements.

Re: My life after 44 years in prison

#103
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that criminals for the most part don't think "ah, I can commit this crime, I will 'only' get 5-10 years" and "oh, this crime would be 50 years - in that case I won't do it". With all respect, I don't see how this sentence is relevant to what I wrote. I get that your trying to use it to support the next sentence, but I don't see how it does that either. Extremely long sentences just don't add much to the…

I agree with you, but once a person is in the prison system, the goal should be rehabilitation because almost all prisoners will re enter society at some point. The problem is that the prison system isn't very good at rehabilitation as evidenced by the high rates of recidivism. Ask yourself this: does prison, as it exists today, make convicts better people?

Recidivism should naturally be higher in a country where per capita incarceration is higher, right?

Re: My life after 44 years in prison

#105
post #4

This man's experience and attitude towards life is amazing. Very inspiring. Props to him. 44 years is ridiculous amount of time for an assault when others are getting away with a few years for an actual murder or slavery. Don't prisons have common areas with TVs, radios, or magazines? It worries me that inmates don't have access to basic development as a human/society.

Most prisoners avoid the TV common area, usually it's gang members watching something and you don't want to be around if some other gang decides to attack them.

The libraries depend on the prison and are usually spartan with just law books and religious material, and magazines like National Geographic are considered contraband in some prisons.

Radios they have in some state jails not sure about federal. You have to buy an approved radio that can't be taken apart to make any weapons or hide contraband in, and they are very expensive considering most prisoners make hardly anything, and sometimes are forbidden any income at all such as TDCJ.

Re: My life after 44 years in prison

#106
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you reconcile that with a very high recidivism rate?[0] If anything, you're disproving your own argument. [0] http://www.bjs.gov/content/reentry/recidivism.cfm

> How do you reconcile that with a very high recidivism rate?[0] The upsides to crime for some people are very high, and the downsides of going to prison are again for those people, not all that high. I think that's pretty obvious. The problem is that you're taking the beliefs about prison that you hold and applying them universally. That's not the correct way to look at it. A person with $1mm in the bank is going to…

I understand your point that a portion of the recidivism is attributable to calculated risk on behalf of career criminals, but I think that in and of itself is a pretty sad state of affairs.

>A person with a criminal record who understands how stacked against him/her society is

I would argue that society being stacked against convicts is not congruent with the goal of reform.

At the risk of "taking the beliefs I hold about prison and applying them universally", I'd say the U.S. criminal justice system today resembles a vindictive meat grinder that excels at taking deeply troubled people and placing them in an environment that's detrimental to their rehabilitation.

It's hard to argue in favor of tough sentencing when the correctional system effectively operates as an overflow for other failed systems—be it mental health, political, education, social welfare, or public safety.

Re: My life after 44 years in prison

#107
post #90
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if your meaning to say we should do away with criminal sentencing? - sorry, I should have clarified that disposing of excessive sentences does not mean disposing of sentences altogether. > They do actually. The US has extremely long sentences. It has an incredibly high incarceration rate - higher than South Africa in it's apartheid prime, higher than China or Russia ever had, and yet crime there is no be…

sorry, I should have clarified ok, I see. the US is atrociously higher than it's contemporaries (a rate of ~4.8 vs ~1.0-1.5) What is that a rate of, murders per 100k or something? Maybe the US just has a population and/or conditions that are more prone to committing murder, that doesn't mean the country should scale back it's punishment of murderers. It's highly doubtful that the longer sentence length(is the US's lo…

> It's highly doubtful that the longer sentence length(is the US's longer on average?) is somehow contributing to a higher murder rate.

More men in prison -> more broken homes -> more people with more damage in their upbringing -> more crime

^^ that's just one potential mechanism for having demographic-sized populations of people locked up. About half a decade ago, it was estimated that one in nine black men in the US were either imprisoned or on parole. That's a lot of families missing an important member (even if not a father, a missing husband/son/brother is also an issue).

One of the problems with discussing crime (particularly in the US) is that people tend to focus on the criminal as a single individual, and not about the demographic-scale effects.

> What did you think about how I described sentence length as being a function of cost-benefit analysis?

Extremely long sentences haven't been shown to be an effective deterrent, and if anything, they mean that the prisoner is more likely to cause problems inside (if you're jailed for life, you can basically kill with impunity in the jail, for example). Long sentences mean more prisoners inside costing the taxpayer, less workers outside generating tax dollars, fewer families with present parents, and a broader 'criminal class' (and higher recidivism - if the only thing you know how to do is crime, because your skills have rotted...).

The justice system as a whole is meant to keep society running smoothly, and the penal system is part of that - it doesn't stand alone, separate unto itself. If rehabilitation and shorter sentences means that society runs better, then that should be targeted. The equation isn't as simple as "crime X costs Y dollars damage, incarceration costs Z dollars per diem, calculate for recidivism". Imprisonment has a lot of social knock-on effects.

Re: My life after 44 years in prison

#108
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you reconcile that with a very high recidivism rate?[0] If anything, you're disproving your own argument. [0] http://www.bjs.gov/content/reentry/recidivism.cfm

> How do you reconcile that with a very high recidivism rate?[0] The upsides to crime for some people are very high, and the downsides of going to prison are again for those people, not all that high. I think that's pretty obvious. The problem is that you're taking the beliefs about prison that you hold and applying them universally. That's not the correct way to look at it. A person with $1mm in the bank is going to…

> The person who already has a criminal record has very little to lose at least from a reputational perspective.

Imprisonment isn't just a loss of reputation, not by a long shot. The loss of reputation is one of the lesser reasons to avoid prison.

Re: My life after 44 years in prison

#109
post #10
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His time served is actually twice as long as the average life sentence served for actual murder in the UK. (Some murderers are in for a "whole life" tariff -- ineligible for release on license -- but in general most are eligible for parole hearings after between 8 and 12 years and on average they serve roughly 20 years.) Just in case anyone was thinking that 44 years for attempted murder is a light sentence.

In Crime & Punishment Rodya only has to serve 8 years for the double axe murder of two women in the commission of a robbery. It's a fictional tale about justice in 19th century Russia, but still an interesting comparison I think of when reading about modern sentencing.

He got a reduced sentence for saving two kids from a burning house.

Re: My life after 44 years in prison

#110
post #95
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your cost benefit analysis there is some mighty cold calculus. While I agree there's utility in protecting society from violent offenders, your equation doesn't consider the ethical costs of locking people away for long periods of time. If you believe the criminal justice system to be about reform rather than punishment, then the first question to ask is "Is this person reformed, or should they remain in prison?". If…

your equation doesn't consider the ethical costs of locking people away for long periods of time. This is just my kind of off-the-cuff theorizing, but I had that factored in to the cost column as well. I wasn't speaking about a purely monetary cost. Things like the cost to society of having the person locked away, the cost or not of a society looking at itself and knowing it is a society that locks people away for of…

I'd first like to nitpick your use of your vs you're because you're still doing it but it's really of small importance.

I think you're generalizing a bit. Utilitarian ethics come down to cost-benefit analysis, but that's only for people who are perfectly rational. Even then, this really only works for a definition of rational that comes down to essentially evaluating mathematically the costs and benefits of things without accounting for inherent irrationality.

To complicate the (overplayed) trolley car problem and perhaps see what I'm thinking on this subject, consider it likes this:

If instead of one person you had push two skinnier people instead of one fat person onto the tracks to save the other four, would it change the decision you made? If you do nothing, the trolley driver is responsible for the involuntary manslaughter of four people but you are innocent. If you push two people, you are guilty of the voluntary manslaughter of two people and will serve 50 years in prison.

If there was only one person to push, you would serve 25 years in prison for their voluntary manslaughter. But does this affect whether or not you push people? I doubt it. From a selfish point of view, the best course of action is to not do anything. However, I suspect that for people who are willing to kill fewer people to save more, the number killed does not matter so long as more are saved.

Applying the law to an ethical thought experiment is inherently fraught and I don't mean to imply that this is an academically defensible suggestion however I hope it serves to illustrate why I don't agree with you.

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