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Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

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Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#101

Post by jacobolus »

MertsA wrote: post #88
lern_too_spel wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cap is legally mandated, for safety reasons. They are not regulated for safety in high speed crashes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_vehicle

The cap is 35 mph according to the link here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10558220 It looks like Google limited it to 25 mph on their own accord.

You are misunderstanding. They can drive on roads with 35 as a posted limit, but are limited to driving 25 mph themselves. The law sets the cap, not Google.

From https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1dmy&urile=wcm:path:/dmv_...

An NEV/LSV is a motor vehicle that:

- Has four wheels.

- Within one mile can reach a speed of more than 20 miles per hour (mph) but not more than 25 mph on a paved level surface.

...

Local authorities, by ordinance or resolution, may restrict or prohibit the use of NEVs/LSVs. An NEV/LSV may:

- Not be operated on any roadway with a speed limit above 35 mph.

...

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#102

Post by mmmBacon »

developer1 wrote: post #63
fletchowns wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In California, if you aren't driving 5 mph over the speed limit, the car behind you is going to tailgate the hell out of you. It's ridiculous, I know.

That is normal here too, and it's more like 7-8 mph. So you can receive a ticket for impeding traffic even if the people you are supposedly obstructing would be exceeding the speed limit? Instead of ticketing the slow guy, set up a sting and ticket every person exceeding the limit by more than 6 mph. This whole thing sounds backwards.

Driving substantially slower than the speed of traffic is extremely dangerous because of the potential speed differential. Relative velocity matters.

Also Regensdorf is really pretty busy and all you're doing by going slow is pissing people off. If you want to go that slow, that's what side streets are for.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#103

Post by anon4 »

mberning wrote: post #5

I think about this often. Every day in rush hour traffic I have to take a number of calculated risks in order to get to work. This usually crops up when making a turn onto a highly congested road. I could easily see a self driving car being too conservative to find a gap and pull out, leading to a furious string of drivers behind it.

I don't know about you, but people raging behind the wheel because I'm in front and driving safely gives me schadenfreude... It might be less safe on the whole, given that angry people drive more aggressively, but they would have driven aggressively anyway, so... meh?

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#104

Post by btiede »

kriro wrote: post #78
btiede wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed that enough of these self-driving cars on the road would put human drivers at a relative disadvantage if the self-driving cars are able to transmit and share data among themselves regarding dangerous road conditions that require extra precautions (e.g., icy, slick surfaces), accidents, traffic conditions or dangerous human drivers that are putting others at risk.

Alternatively, they could also share their data in an open way and some device in regular cars could pick it up and use it to assist regular drivers. I think both scenarios are possible. That data is valuable so maybe Google doesn't share it. Sharing it would create quite a bit of goodwill towards their cars so maybe they will. It's an interesting strategic decision. [not sure about data protection laws but maybe the…

Yes, I would be a HUGE advocate of them sharing this data. Autonomous cars can share their data with human drivers in the vicinity to alert them to situations on the road. Perhaps each vehicle (autonomous and human-driven) could contribute to an open network of data that any vehicle in the vicinity can access and process to alert their drivers or take necessary actions to protect the safety of all passengers.

Would be interested in hearing legal opinions about whether this data would only be shared if the individual car owners 'opt in' or if the operator - Google - could mandate the sharing of this data while the cars are on the road.

Trying to think of downsides to an open shared platform of such data.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#105

Post by forgettableuser »

declan wrote: post #50
finnn wrote: post #10

They didn't link to either of their sources, so I went and found them: Mountain View Police Department blog post: http://mountainviewpoliceblog.com/2015/11/12/inquiring-minds... Google Self-Driving Car Project Google+ post: https://plus.google.com/+SelfDrivingCar/posts/j9ouVZSZnRf

Thanks! That MV police blog post says the traffic officer stopped the car to "educate the operators about impeding traffic per 22400(a) of the California Vehicle Code." That section of the vehicle code says, emphasis added: "No person shall drive upon a highway at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, unless the reduced speed is necessary for safe operation, because of…

    That MV police blog post says the traffic officer stopped the car to "educate the operators about impeding traffic per 22400(a) of the California Vehicle Code."
Sounds like a Dukes of Hazzard episode where the Duke boys are driving a piece of junk and Rosco gets them in his speed trap. They explain that the car is incapable of exceeding the speed limit, so he gets them for impeding traffic.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#106

Post by rgbrenner »

kissickas wrote: post #80
declan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! That MV police blog post says the traffic officer stopped the car to "educate the operators about impeding traffic per 22400(a) of the California Vehicle Code." That section of the vehicle code says, emphasis added: "No person shall drive upon a highway at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, unless the reduced speed is necessary for safe operation, because of…

Is that required by law? FTA '"We've capped the speed of our prototype vehicles at 25 mph for safety reasons," the post explained. "We want them to feel friendly and approachable, rather than zooming scarily through neighborhood streets."' Sounds like Google's decision to me. Either way, it's not a highway, so that section seems irrelevant. And "in compliance with the law" is quite a broad redirect.

Yes, it's by (federal) law... specifically Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 500

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/lsv/lsv.html

Vehicles under 3000lbs and with a max speed of 20-25mph (like golf carts) do not have to meet the safety requirements of passenger vehicles.

This wikipedia page sums up the situation pretty well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#107

Post by hinoka »

anon4 wrote: post #98
wpietri wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Impersonating a police car is, unsurprisingly, already a crime: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_impersonation States have similar laws for other emergency vehicles. E.g.: http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/2...

Does this apply when you're not fooling any person? As in, you're not trying to impersonate a police officer per se, you're fooling the vehicle's police detection into assuming a police vehicle is coming.

> you're fooling the vehicle's police detection

Sounds like impersonation to me.

The "person" in impersonation refers to the entity being imitated, not the entity being deceived.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#108

Post by anon4 »

arrrg wrote: post #92
derefr wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing it's intended as a liability law, like jaywalking laws are. Nobody will ticket you for jaywalking; instead, it'll just serve as the defense of whoever ended up hitting you. "They just ran out onto the freeway right in front of me!"

I was ticketed for jaywalking in Germany. It’s a €5 fine. Police was hiding in an unmarked car, watching a traffic light in front of a supermarket with the singular purpose of catching jaywalkers. I was crossing the street (definitely not a busy one, more of an access road, mostly to just that supermarket and the old center of town, decidedly not exciting on a weekday at 10pm) while the light was red. The officer was…

Crossing on red is not jaywalking as per the American definition. Jaywalking is crossing the street where there isn't a crosswalk or pedestrian traffic light.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#109

Post by DrScump »

ilyanep wrote: post #94
ggreer wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, many of the speed limits are low. Look at street view where the car was pulled over.[1] El Camino Real is a divided boulevard with three lanes in each direction. There are stoplights and dedicated turning lanes. I'm not an aggressive driver, but I've caught myself speeding on that road before. Everything about it makes my mind think, "It's safe to go faster." 1. https://goo.gl/maps/WdfhEAGBsDP2

El Camino always seemed to me like it has an absurdly low speed limit, then a friend reminded me that there are unsignaled pedestrian crosswalks along it in Mountain View. It's true that it feels like it ought to be a 45 road, though.

I don't know of any on El Camino in Mountain View not at a controlled intersection. There are some on ECR in Sunnyvale (e.g. just W of Halford) and two notorious ones in Santa Clara, though.

Of course, the County wants to reserve a lane for bus use only now...

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#110

Post by clort »

agumonkey wrote: post #62
fletchowns wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In California, if you aren't driving 5 mph over the speed limit, the car behind you is going to tailgate the hell out of you. It's ridiculous, I know.

I think it's universal behavior. Driving at speed limits gets you angry looks, below speed limit and people wanna hurt you. All that so they can reach the red light earlier.

> angry looks

I wonder how well the self driving car copes with these.

In fact, I wonder how well the self driving car copes with an overly aggressive driver cutting in front and slamming on their brakes just to piss you off. I guess it would handle that better than my mothers elderly neighbour who recently didn't manage to brake in time and hit the twerp, writing off her vehicle in the process. Of course, it was counted as her fault since she struck the car in front..

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