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Why Torture Doesn't Work: The Neuroscience of Interrogation

nature.com

101–110 of 159 posts

Re: Why Torture Doesn't Work: The Neuroscience of Interrogation

#101
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not everyone agrees that use of torture 'cedes moral high ground' There probably are a few assholes who don't, but to take it seriously outside the realm of a purely philosophical discussion on formal logic is something that no sane human being should even consider. I don't care if Germans, Japanese, North Vietnamese or, for that matter, Americans were generally good or bad.

I think most sane human beings would consider torture in situations where the information obtained could save many lives (for example during the war).

I hear this argument a lot. That situation is as unlikely as it gets. At least in my part of the world, torture is particularly discouraged as a means of gathering information during war.

Not only are prisoners likely to confess anything that will make the pain stop, but the ones inflicting it are themselves unlikely to be able to tell when the one being tortured is telling the truth.

Furthermore, even if he tells the truth (as in information that he honestly believes to be true), it's very difficult to tell if that information is of real value or just another smoke screen -- i.e. if the man you're holding was intentionally misinformed by an enemy who became aware of his imminent capture, or who simply believe the risk of capture to be very high. History is full of cases where important plans have been withheld even from unit commanders, having been shared only with the highest political and military commanders. In such cases, field units aren't left without orders -- they're given inconsequentially fake ones.

Saying "torture would be OK in situations where the information obtained could save many lives" is basically like saying "living in the Sahara would be OK during rainy days". It's theoretically possible and it's obviously hard to disagree that you can live for 24 hours in a desert where it rains, but there's a good reason why no one is rushing to live in the Sahara.

Re: Why Torture Doesn't Work: The Neuroscience of Interrogation

#102
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your daughter and wife were kidnapped by 2 people and you catch one of them, would you torture him to save them? What if you learned that they are being raped every day? Would you torture him then ? What if you knew they do this every two weeks to another family, would you do it then? What if you caught someone that has a habit of planting bombs in schools, would you do it then ? I don't know if torture works or i…

Hand them over to the police and let them deal with it - they're far better at interrogating people for information, and far better resourced for a rescue operation.

I was giving a couple of examples in reply to the "Why is this a topic of conversation?" question. It's not meant to be taken literally as a plan to save someone.

I'm just saying that it's worth having a conversation over.

PS: what's up with the downvotes in this thread ?

Re: Why Torture Doesn't Work: The Neuroscience of Interrogation

#103
post #54

That torture doesn't work to extract information has been known anecdotally at least since the 2nd world war - read up on Hans Scharf - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff But tortute does work when your goal is oppressing large populations; instilling fear and control. This is the discussion the US ought to be having... what wa the real policy behind torture?

Not long before 9/11, a friend of mine went through SERE training. He said the main purpose of the torture techniques they used wasn't to gain information, but to make the captive say whatever the captors wished.

Then all this torture stuff came up and lo and behold, they used those same techniques from SERE (at least, what's publicly known about them), and the "information" they came up with said there were WMDs in Iraq.

(Of course, this wasn't necessarily an unintentional falsehood. It could just be that high command said "get us information on WMDs in Iraq," and special forces soldiers who'd been through SERE used the techniques they knew.)

Re: Why Torture Doesn't Work: The Neuroscience of Interrogation

#104
post #10

I think torture should be illegal and I think the "enhanced interrogation" techniques used at Guantanamo are abhorrent. But I also think there are real-world scenarios in which torture is not only moral, but where it would be immoral not to torture. This sounds absurd, but consider this real-life case given in The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy[1]: A woman's car is stolen. Unknown to the thief, her child is slee…

> immoral not to torture.

I don't know of single or any other data-point in which torture yielded useful information.

Even few cases that claimed torture yielded useful information, in the end turned out that were given without any torture and those that were given were so bad, that a routine check-up could invalidate it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmeF2rzsZSU

Re: Why Torture Doesn't Work: The Neuroscience of Interrogation

#105
post #54

That torture doesn't work to extract information has been known anecdotally at least since the 2nd world war - read up on Hans Scharf - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff But tortute does work when your goal is oppressing large populations; instilling fear and control. This is the discussion the US ought to be having... what wa the real policy behind torture?

Yes. If CIA would actually worry about the terrorist, then the terrorists still free would be 1. concern. They are really hard to catch, no matter how you try.

Now if you go torture route, you might get some information that is quickly getting dated. But you also validate the terrorist cause. And terrorists in hostage situations don't want to surrender, because they know they will be tortured.

If you would treat captured terrorists incredibly nicely, that would cause huge moral decay and risk of snitching to the terrorists who are still free. This is in line with Sun Tzu from few thousand years back "always reward a traitor, never trust him". Also U.S. domestic terrorism called "mafia" was best fought with witness protection program.

CIA isn't stupid. They do torture for some reason.

Re: Why Torture Doesn't Work: The Neuroscience of Interrogation

#106
post #91
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We make cost-benefit analyses all the time. With any military operation the collateral damage has to be weighed against the target. The fact that we freak out over torture yet kill innocent people in collateral damage is completely irrational. On the scale of harm, torture that leaves no physical harm is behind cutting off people's limbs, and that is far behind killing people. Now, torturing innocent people is worse…

Using war to justify torture is like using murder to justify rape.

Are saying that collateral damage is not justified under any circumstance? Otherwise your witty response does nothing to adress the point that I made. We already do not condone murder nor rape.

Re: Why Torture Doesn't Work: The Neuroscience of Interrogation

#107
post #7

About 4 years ago I went to a talk given by the author of the book, the subject was along the same lines as the book: how torture is ineffective because it damages the subject's ability to recall information. Afterwards someone asked a question that a lot of us had been thinking: that in a lot of situations where torture might be used, the information being asked for is very well known to the subject, so unless serio…

Taking it from a more political point of view rather than neurological, Shakespeare did a political play on this subject which was summarily all about blow-back or stone cold revenge — "Titus Andronicus." (A movie by Julie Taymor of the play "Titus" is quite powerful) In politics and war The dirtiest fighter makes the rules and now that the United States tortures people, I suspect we will be "one-upped" in the next w…

Yes, many of my worries about what my government get up to are based on the fact that they lose all moral standing when others do the same, see Russia bombing Syria for a recent example.

Re: Why Torture Doesn't Work: The Neuroscience of Interrogation

#108
post #54

That torture doesn't work to extract information has been known anecdotally at least since the 2nd world war - read up on Hans Scharf - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff But tortute does work when your goal is oppressing large populations; instilling fear and control. This is the discussion the US ought to be having... what wa the real policy behind torture?

"preying upon his prisoner's fears of the infamous Gestapo". Would you say then that torture (of other people) eventually played a role in the effectiveness of his technique ?

Re: Why Torture Doesn't Work: The Neuroscience of Interrogation

#109
post #54

That torture doesn't work to extract information has been known anecdotally at least since the 2nd world war - read up on Hans Scharf - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff But tortute does work when your goal is oppressing large populations; instilling fear and control. This is the discussion the US ought to be having... what wa the real policy behind torture?

Not long before 9/11, a friend of mine went through SERE training. He said the main purpose of the torture techniques they used wasn't to gain information, but to make the captive say whatever the captors wished. Then all this torture stuff came up and lo and behold, they used those same techniques from SERE (at least, what's publicly known about them), and the "information" they came up with said there were WMDs in…

When and where was torture used to generate theories about WMD in Iraq?

afaik it was based on the well established fact that Saddam Hussein had once possessed and used WMDs, cynicism about his stated destruction of them and circumstantial evidence that certain facilities might have still contained them.

Re: Why Torture Doesn't Work: The Neuroscience of Interrogation

#110
post #106
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using war to justify torture is like using murder to justify rape.

Are saying that collateral damage is not justified under any circumstance? Otherwise your witty response does nothing to adress the point that I made. We already do not condone murder nor rape.

War is a barbarism at industrial scale, which humanity, unfortunately, haven't managed to eradicate. There are however certain undertakings to reduce human suffering: bans of certain particularly inhumane or indiscriminating weapons, prohibitions of deliberate targeting of civilians, and yes, elimination of torture.

If you make an effort to reduce suffering it comes as a complete package: people quick to torture are the same people who would use Sarin on civilians. There is simply no middle ground. The concept of innocence doesn't come into play anyway. Wars are mass murders stemming from greater social and political processes; a conscript soldier guarding a fuel depot is not any more "guilty" apriori than his civilian relative.

There is more or less intellectual consensus that wars cause suffering, and attempts are made to reduce the misery. Propagating torture is not serving a good cause here. You essentially argue that a "lesser" crime is acceptable in context of a "greater" crime going on anyway. If one's going to kill the victim might rape her anyway.

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