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Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

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Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#101
post #54

What is wrong with the statement "We won't lower the bar"? Some people criticize that that statement is racist, but they aren't thinking about the context. When people ask companies to do something about diversity, they're normally asking to carve out more quota for certain minority group, just like how universities carve out certain portion of their student quota for people who donate large amount of money to get in…

It's factually wrong.

If you (try to) eliminate race from hiring, you don't lower the bar. You raise it, because suddenly there's a group of so-so engineers who now can't get a job just because they're white.

If that feels uncomfortable, replace "white" with "MIT student". Or any other in-group.

If you almost exclusively hire from a single group, at some point just being part of that group makes it easier for you to get a job.

As far as I can tell, nobody is asking for hiring quotas based on profile. What people are asking for is an equal chance.

For pretty much any group that's not white/asian male, tech has an issue. The percentage of the minority group in the general demographic is higher than the percentage of people in that group graduating. The percentage of graduates is higher than the percentage of people hired. The percentage of people hired is higher than the percentage of people promoted.

All this diversity thing is asking for is that we take a look why the percentages are decreasing.

E.g. for black people: They're 12% of the general work force. 4.5% of CS bachelors are black. 2% of SV tech employees are black. 1% of Fortune-500 CEOs are black.

There's constant attrition going on, while the number of the main demographic increases as you go up the ladder. (This general relationships hold for other minorities as well, but I don't have numbers handy right now)

That's what diversity asks for - stop the steady attrition of anybody who's not in the majority group.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#102
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. A lot of white men get that sense.

That's an ad hominem attack of the exact kind that (I'm guessing) jonesb6 would argue against. If you have some concrete non-racist criticism of jonesb6's post let's hear it. Ideas should be judged on their own merits not the skin color of the originator ... much like Twitter VPs.

Wasn't Beat agreeing with Jonesb6? Did you forget a /sarcasm tag?

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#103
post #41

> There were also the Hiring Committee meetings that became contentious when I advocated for diverse candidates. Candidates who were dinged for not being fast enough to solve problems, not having internships at ‘strong’ companies and who took too long to finish their degree. Only after hours of lobbying would they be hired. Needless to say, the majority of them performed well. Why is it needless to say that?

Because they have been proven time and time again to have very little affect on the quality of an engineer. Simply put these are often poor indicators of success even among like candidates. When you're specifically talking minority or low income candidates, which unfortunately often go hand in hand it doesn't make sense to think that any of these factors speak to a candidates suitability for a given role.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These experiences will have shaped the two men differently. You are implying that those negative experiences are a product of racism and not of simple statistics. Maybe, only maybe, people _dont have_ as many problems with white guys wandering down a dark street wearing a hoodie as they have with black guys wandering down a dark street wearing a hoodie, so they dont call the cops on the former and call the cops on…

So Eric Gardner probably deserved to get choked out because he sold cigarettes illegally on a street? And Michael Brown was probably a thug, so deserved to die?

> And Michael Brown was probably a thug, so deserved to die?

He didnt "deserve" to die, but the fact that he violently robbed a store minutes before he died, maybe, _only maybe_, contributed to his violent death, dont you agree?

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#105

I've been working for over 20 years in tech at 10+ different companies around the Valley, and I can count on 1 hand the number of direct coworkers that were black, and on 2 hands the number of coworkers that I indirectly worked with that were black. I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. Trying to solve the diversity issue at the hiring end, when the numb…

This is exactly the same as saying that the reason women had little power in America before 1920 was because they couldn't vote. Which is true, but completely overlooks why women didn't have the right to vote.

Women didn't have power because they were oppressed by men for centuries. Black people don't have "as good an education" because they've been systematically abandoned by the most powerful parts of society for centuries.

You could spend 100 million on a program just in my city alone to try to give disadvantaged kids tech lessons. You know what would happen?

Nothing, because you haven't addressed the fact that they have to sell dope, hustle or work multiple jobs just to put food on their family's table; that they're watching their baby sibling while mom and dad go out to score junk; that their friends need them to join the local gang to protect their neighborhood; that they don't have access to transportation to get to the classes; that the rest of the city needs money and will steal from the education fund as it always does, because why try to teach the kids when they're not going to learn anyway; and of course, because their parents gave up on their future a long time ago and give zero shit about trying to help them make something of themselves.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huge upvote here. As much as we would like to forget about race in America, the fact is: Race Matters. The way people look at you, talk to you (or ignore you), talk about you, extend invites, etc..that ALL changes with your race.

Yes - I'm treated very differently from most of my coworkers on account of race. I could give lots of mildly interesting examples - it certainly means my dating life is very different. But how does it affect me on the job? I write quantitative software, and spend lots of time thinking about bayesian hierarchical models and multiple comparisons. You are suggesting I have some unique power. I'd really like to know how…

I do not understand the latter half of your 2nd paragraph as I do not see the parent was suggesting you have unique powers. It seemed to me he was just acknowledging that race plays a part in professional America.

As far as how it affects you on the job.... well, in the subject under discussion, they candidates are not even considered for the job because of their race. We have not got to the point where they are even 'on the job'. Per the article, when a diverse candidate was bought in, they performed well.

Perhaps I misread and misunderstood your response and my reply just builds on the confusion.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#107
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - I'm treated very differently from most of my coworkers on account of race. I could give lots of mildly interesting examples - it certainly means my dating life is very different. But how does it affect me on the job? I write quantitative software, and spend lots of time thinking about bayesian hierarchical models and multiple comparisons. You are suggesting I have some unique power. I'd really like to know how…

If you're in the (to me, enviable) position of never building a user-facing feature in a piece of software -- if you purely get to think algorithms all day, and you never draw on any knowledge or experience you've gained outside a classroom or a book -- then who knows. Maybe it doesn't matter what life experiences you've had. I personally have never had a job like that. My interests, personality, experience, and wisd…

I think about user facing features all the time. For example, should we display midpoint estimates, or just stick to credible intervals? Can we give an empirical conversion rate %, or will customers misunderstand and make a bad decision based on it?

But ok, lets say I'm a typical software engineer, building a CRUD app used by banks to set up a new customer with an HSA. What's my unique non-Indian perspective on that?

I can understand how there might be a useful purpose for token diversity on the UX teams for some consumer products. That's an exceedingly small part of the tech world.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#108
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did express the thought of "normalized to an appropiate" metric badly. I don't know what that metric is, and don't presume to know. Local demographics were just one example to me. I'll correct the post.

I quoted your use of "not unexpected" because it suggests that you have some expectation. I would call the the basis for that expectation part of a presumption that you know.

Yeah, i can see how it could be interpreted like that. I didn't have any strong expectation of how it should be. Merely a number of guesses as where that number could end up. To me it seems reasonable that the number would end up somewhere between half of the local percentage and 1.5x of the us percentage (assuming foreigners are not statistically significant), which would put it somewhere between 2.5% and 25%. To me numbers outside of that would be unexpected and surprising.

Interestingly, the 30% number seems to indicate that twitter actually does pretty good user-wise.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#109
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. A lot of white men get that sense.

That's an ad hominem attack of the exact kind that (I'm guessing) jonesb6 would argue against. If you have some concrete non-racist criticism of jonesb6's post let's hear it. Ideas should be judged on their own merits not the skin color of the originator ... much like Twitter VPs.

Is it ad hominem if it's true? "articles like this are detrimental to equal rights movements" (phrased as a question, not as a statement, but that's a cheap rhetorical trick) is a position taken almost exclusively by the beneficiaries of racial and gender privilege. And jonesb6 did not address the substance of the article, but rather the tone.

What it really boils down to is this: "As a beneficiary of privilege, it makes me uncomfortable when people point out that racism and sexism exist. I can't say they're factually wrong, so I'll talk about the tone instead. If they would just stop being so uppity and find a way to solve the problems of racism and sexism that do not make white men uncomfortable or take any action, everything would be fine. But they haven't, and it's their fault."

Does that seem like a "concrete, non-racist criticism" to you? Sorry if I can't magically remove race as a factor in the tone argument, but reality interferes. The tone argument is made almost exclusively by whites. You can call it "racist", but you can't change the fact. Calling it racist is a cop-out, a convenient dismissal of a valid and problematic point.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure it's a reductio ad absurdum argument.

It was... but check it: If you established targets based on population percentages (or user ethnicity percentages), and (AFAIK) Asians are typically over-represented by population in tech and blacks under-represented, does that mean if they have qualified Asian candidates they turn them down so it doesn't harm their target numbers? Or is that illegal so they focus on reducing Asians early in the pipeline? I really do…

I think it's pretty clear. Except in the dramatically unlikely case that the racial quotas are precisely tuned to have no effect at all, then having racial quotas necessarily means that more qualified applicants of one race are rejected in favor of less qualified applicants of another race, explicitly because of their race. If you're in a jurisdiction in which this is illegal (such as the U.S.) then racial quotas or preferences are illegal. Why no one else seems to realize this is illegal (as well as immoral) is beyond me.

Edit: Downvotes are nice, but refutations are better.

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