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Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

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Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#101

Post by arcadeparade »

bokonist wrote: post #78
arcadeparade wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's no worse than the Romans, or Gauls, or Saxons, etc. Or the Nazis? If they had won WW2 I'm sure some people in Germany today would be calling the Holocaust "an unfortunate but necessary part of human progress" and would tell us all about the backwardness of Jewish culture, I'm sure while also being "sympathetic to the plight" of those victims too. That doesn't mean that one group of people have the right to wipe…

What's your answer to my question?

It's not a sensible question so I can't answer it. I just dont think that what happened to the Native Americans was right, it was genocide, and anything positive that came out of it doesnt excuse it.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#102

Post by bokonist »

hristov wrote: post #94
bokonist wrote: post #3

Question to HN readers who are sympathetic with this article: If you could wave a magic wand and "undo" all that was done, would you do so? So imagine all those who perished in the 1500's would be revived from the dead and restored to their ancestral lands, all those living in the Americas now would be sent back to England, Ireland, China, etc, with a one way ticket and $10K in cash to start a new life. Would you wav…

This is a false dichotomy. It would have been quite possible to have had peaceful coexistence with the natives, and to slowly assimilate the natives into American society. In fact on a smaller scale that actually happened in a lot of places. Many early settlements had natives living and trading and working in there on a more or less equal footing as whites. In fact it would have been probably more beneficial economic…

I used to think the same thing, but I now believe that is wishful thinking. The Europeans had 10,000 of cultural and genetic adaptation to high density, agricultural based living. The natives lived a fundamentally different way of life that required far less population density. Like the Navi in Avatar, most natives would rather fight and die than give up their ancestral ways. And even if they had wanted to assimilate, it's not clear it would have been possible. While there was some peaceful co-existence on a small scale, as soon as the density grows the farms start encroaching on the hunting grounds and the conflict becomes unavoidable.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#103

Post by billswift »

catzaa wrote: post #77
themilkmandan wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, all this black-or-white talk about genocide misses a lot of the subtleties. How about a nuanced analysis of the Jewish Holocaust? Nobody brings up enough the fact that Hitler built some damn good roads.

The world is a lot more complex than that. Germany was not treated well after the First World War. It was almost certain that there will be another war and a dictator would come to power (the only question was when, and what the dictator's name would be). This does not mean that everything the German army did was good or justified (e.g. the Holocaust). And neither was the allies knights in shining armour (firebombing…

You mean after the First World War. That's why I argued elsewhere that Woodrow Wilson deserves a big chunk of the blame for the rise of Nazi Germany, maybe even more than Hitler, since without his meddling in Europe during the Great War Hitler quite possibly would never have gotten anywhere.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#104

Post by timwiseman »

IsaacSchlueter wrote: post #38

This article, and many of the comments here, hint at a deeper and more interesting phenomenon: the need to have things be either all good or all bad. That is, either (A) western civilization is good, and the things it has done were good, and the things it values are good values, etc., or (B) it's bad, and the things it has done were bad, and the things it values are bad values, etc. Once this dichotomy is accepted, a…

This is certainly one of the most insightful comments I have seen here.

I would not call either Native Americans or Europeans awful, though. As you correctly point out, neither group (in fact no group in all of history) was either pristine and perfect or wholly bad.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#105

Post by _h4xr »

maxwell wrote: post #95
_h4xr wrote: post #2

I recommend getting over it. You are almost certainly the descendants murderers and conquerors. http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7819&... That's just how humans roll. Western Europe had lots of problems, but countries that operate in the European tradition are better places to live. (At least, when you look at the immigration patterns between third-world and first-world countries, it's clear that fi…

> Western Europe had lots of problems, but countries that operate in the European tradition are better places to live. But what suggests "places that operate in the European tradition" will remain better (i.e. what traits of Euro civilization are optimal given any group of humans)? What makes this expression any more meaningful than something like, "C had lots of problems, but languages in the C-family are better to…

If the smartest non-C programmers all started programming in C, and the C programmers never switched to something else, you could make that judgment.

What's interesting is that I almost never find out, halfway through an argument like this, that I'm talking to someone who moved to a place unspoiled by Western imperialism. Mongolia, for example.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#106

Post by turkishrevenge »

IsaacSchlueter wrote: post #83
turkishrevenge wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're talking in vague abstractions without referencing specific period of brutality in humanity's history. Platitudes prevent you from making an actual judgment about a given event. > "It's quite possible for the Native Americans to have been savages, and the Europeans to have been savages (with better weapons), and for one group of awful people to have murdered another group of awful people." Conquistadors, we…

Holy crap, I can't believe this. Let me say this for the record: The slaughter of Native Americans by the Conquistadors was a terrible thing. Awful. Tragic. An abomination. Also, and completely not taking anything away from the awful abominableness of that terrible tragedy, the Native Americans had lots of other problems with their culture, and were in many ways, quite savage. The Conquistadors had really good food,…

Fine, I understand where you're coming from. Consider though that by very fact the conquistadors received funding from the crown, must in some way, shape, or form, have reflected prevailing attitudes at the time in Spain and within the Catholic church. After all, one of the goals of the expeditions was to "Christianize" the godless heathens, as well as "find" material wealth. So in this sense, yes, some of the attitudes at the time, e.g. the spread of Christendom by any (usually violent) means necessary, are ugly and bad.

> "The real world is complicated, and all-or-nothing thinking is irrationally and unforgivably lazy."

Yes, some idea require a certain nuanced approach to fully comprehend, others however, do not. This is not one of them. I guess you can throw up you up your hand and cry "I can't decide, these waters are too ethically difficult to navigate, argh!" and forever cop out. It's easier.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#107

Post by bokonist »

DaniFong wrote: post #16
bokonist wrote: post #3

Question to HN readers who are sympathetic with this article: If you could wave a magic wand and "undo" all that was done, would you do so? So imagine all those who perished in the 1500's would be revived from the dead and restored to their ancestral lands, all those living in the Americas now would be sent back to England, Ireland, China, etc, with a one way ticket and $10K in cash to start a new life. Would you wav…

I have to believe that somewhere in the parameter space of human diplomacy and relationships there is the possibility for expansion and coexistence without utter annihilation of one side. We appear to be doing it on some scales in the modern age, certainly much better than we've done before, though not perfectly. Still, homo sapiens largely wiped out neanderthal populations many eons ago. They had a similar to larger…

I have to believe that somewhere in the parameter space of human diplomacy and relationships there is the possibility for expansion and coexistence without utter annihilation of one side.

I always thought that the Romans empire expanded solely out of greed and power lust. One day I was reading about one of their very, very early battles. Turns out the population of Rome and of the neighboring city had expanded to the point where there was only enough resources for one city to survive. Rome won, and in a quest to secure resources and protect the home city from getting sacked, did not stop expanding.

I recommend the book, "The Fates of Nations" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fates_of_Nations ). It's dark, but very realistic. The fundamental problem of human affairs is that we are animals born to reproduce, living in a world of limited resources.

The real hope for the human race is not a new moral code. It's thorium and the birth control pill. Only the combination of sufficient energy and controlled population will enable us to share the same planet without clawing each other to death.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#108

Post by astine »

tfh wrote: post #56
IsaacSchlueter wrote: post #38

This article, and many of the comments here, hint at a deeper and more interesting phenomenon: the need to have things be either all good or all bad. That is, either (A) western civilization is good, and the things it has done were good, and the things it values are good values, etc., or (B) it's bad, and the things it has done were bad, and the things it values are bad values, etc. Once this dichotomy is accepted, a…

> It's quite possible for the Native Americans to have been savages, and the Europeans to have been savages (with better weapons), and for one group of awful people to have murdered another group of awful people. I don't understand what do you mean with that. I don't think there's an absolute good or bad. But according to the fact that Europeans are the ones who came to America and slaughtered the Natives, they are t…

One thing to remember is that the slaughter was not wholly one sided. The carib indians for example were known to be cannibals, reputedly attacked Spanish settlements (supposedly for the purposes of consumption) before they themselves were conquered and enslaved.

Cortez only managed to conquer Mexico by getting caught up in the wars which were already being waged. The Massacre at Cholula, (depending on whose account you believe) was either instigated by the Tlaxcalans or the Aztecs.

In addition, while many native tribes were complicit in the subjugation of their neighbors, the most consistent defense of the human rights of the natives come from religious missionaries who did everything in their power to protect the natives.

In the end, there were 'good guys' and 'bad guys' on both sides and you can't judge Europeans as evil based on this. The truth is just more complicated.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#109

Post by [deleted] »

seldo wrote: post #11
eries wrote: post #6

I was expecting the "The Holocaust We Will Not See" to be the one that will obviously take place after the film ends. The native people have driven the imperialists off their planet. But, the imperialists have space weapons and the natives do not. Plus, the imperialists only want inert matter that exists underground. And, they are so evil they have no respect for life in any form. I assume a kinetic bombardment is im…

[Warning: spoiler-heavy] I have to say the exact same thing occurred to me at the end of the movie. "And so the aliens returned to their dying world." ...yeah, to get more ammo. Of course, the counter-argument might be that the Na'vi managed to defeat a heavily-armed base using a skeleton force, before most of the tribes had even turned up, so by the time they got back Pandora could be too well-prepared to resist for…

[deleted]

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#110

Post by timwiseman »

eries wrote: post #6

I was expecting the "The Holocaust We Will Not See" to be the one that will obviously take place after the film ends. The native people have driven the imperialists off their planet. But, the imperialists have space weapons and the natives do not. Plus, the imperialists only want inert matter that exists underground. And, they are so evil they have no respect for life in any form. I assume a kinetic bombardment is im…

But, the imperialists have space weapons and the natives do not. Plus, the imperialists only want inert matter that exists underground. And, they are so evil they have no respect for life in any form.

An interesting interpretation, but not one born out by the film. Remember this is a private corporation, so they likely have laws back on Earth they must answer to and it is likely that would ban such an overt destruction.

A "forced relocation" (and remember that for whatever reason they did try to drive them out with minimal loss of life at first) could likely be justified under their laws, and probably so can preemptively wiping out a massing army that could overwhelm their security with shear numbers. Kinetic bombardment to wipe out huge swaths of the population probably crosses the line.

Also, it would not be surprising if they did not actually have space based weapons. They had to jury-rig a transport to act as a bomber. Its quite possible that either the company does not have them at all or that they have to travel all the way to earth and back (a many year journey) to get them. And of course, that still only makes sense if their laws would let them use those space based weapons.

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