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PyPy 4.0.0 Released – A Jit with SIMD Vectorization and More

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Re: PyPy 4.0.0 Released – A Jit with SIMD Vectorization and More

#101

Post by rudolf0 »

vegabook wrote: post #94
BuckRogers wrote: post #79

The good news never stops with these guys. PyPy is so good that I've stopped considering myself a "Python programmer" to a "PyPy programmer" over the last few years. Best of every world. I get my preferred language and eliminate CPU performance worries. For me, targeting development on PyPy has taken the place of migrating to Python3. Which just moves too fast in effort to pull people over, Python is too big for that…

I'll go one step further and advocate for the PyPy developers please not to port to Python 3. Here we have a project which has clearly become the go to for 2.x people who would like Python to move forward in a way which makes a real difference to them, and there is an ideal opportunity here for this to become the de-facto continuation of the 2.x line, with a real future, as an alternative to the 3.x forcefeed.

What would be the point of this? Are you suggesting PyPy forks the Python language itself? PyPy hasn't implemented new core language features, and I don't see them doing so in the future. Python 3 is actively developed, fixing many warts in the language and adding great new features.

As annoying as the transition to Python 3 is, it's the future of the language. I was actually one of the curmudgeons who stuck with 2.7 and grumbled about not wanting to switch until a few months ago. I've accepted that I need to, at the very least, start new projects in Python 3 wherever possible. The vast majority of popular third party libraries have been ported over at this point. Python 2's death is inevitable, even if it will take many more years.

Re: PyPy 4.0.0 Released – A Jit with SIMD Vectorization and More

#102

Post by vegabook »

BuckRogers wrote: post #99
vegabook wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll go one step further and advocate for the PyPy developers please not to port to Python 3. Here we have a project which has clearly become the go to for 2.x people who would like Python to move forward in a way which makes a real difference to them, and there is an ideal opportunity here for this to become the de-facto continuation of the 2.x line, with a real future, as an alternative to the 3.x forcefeed.

Not a bad idea. It would certainly elevate the project to unforeseen heights and probably turn them ( http://www.baroquesoftware.com/ ) into very wealthy men while offering a very desired and needed service for many businesses. While harming no one who didn't already harm themselves. More relevant than CPython3 overnight, which is of significant stature. If prestige and money are desirable things, absolute no brainer…

Couldn't agree more. This could well be Python 4! (though my original comment is going lighter grey by the minute so clearly the Python 3 thought police are out in force this afternoon/evening).

Re: PyPy 4.0.0 Released – A Jit with SIMD Vectorization and More

#103

Post by vegabook »

rudolf0 wrote: post #101
vegabook wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll go one step further and advocate for the PyPy developers please not to port to Python 3. Here we have a project which has clearly become the go to for 2.x people who would like Python to move forward in a way which makes a real difference to them, and there is an ideal opportunity here for this to become the de-facto continuation of the 2.x line, with a real future, as an alternative to the 3.x forcefeed.

What would be the point of this? Are you suggesting PyPy forks the Python language itself? PyPy hasn't implemented new core language features, and I don't see them doing so in the future. Python 3 is actively developed, fixing many warts in the language and adding great new features. As annoying as the transition to Python 3 is, it's the future of the language. I was actually one of the curmudgeons who stuck with 2.7…

That is exactly what I am suggesting. There is no urgent necessity to add any new core language features to 2.7. That's what you 3 guys just don't get. I certainly don't need asyncio as much as I need vectorised numerics, and if I needed asyncio, I had at least 5 libraries already. I most definitely will never be type annotating Python. Cloud cuckoo land.

Let me warn you. If you persist with your propaganda on Python3, then GOLANG will be the future of Python. Does that register with you guys?

Nobody who uses Python 2.7 all day every day thinks it has any of these imaginary "worts" you 3.x guys like to pitch incessantly.

Re: PyPy 4.0.0 Released – A Jit with SIMD Vectorization and More

#104

Post by orf »

BuckRogers wrote: post #99
vegabook wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll go one step further and advocate for the PyPy developers please not to port to Python 3. Here we have a project which has clearly become the go to for 2.x people who would like Python to move forward in a way which makes a real difference to them, and there is an ideal opportunity here for this to become the de-facto continuation of the 2.x line, with a real future, as an alternative to the 3.x forcefeed.

Not a bad idea. It would certainly elevate the project to unforeseen heights and probably turn them ( http://www.baroquesoftware.com/ ) into very wealthy men while offering a very desired and needed service for many businesses. While harming no one who didn't already harm themselves. More relevant than CPython3 overnight, which is of significant stature. If prestige and money are desirable things, absolute no brainer…

Yeah, the best thing they could possibly do right now is to fork Python and make yet another flavour. We already have this 2/3 mess so let's throw another version into the mix just as Py2 seems to be dying.

I don't get this hate for Python 3. Yeah some things changed, yeah having a big codebase in Py2 sucks if you don't have the time/resources to switch, but starting new projects in Py3 by default is awesome. Asyncio and async/await are fantastic and worth the switch alone.

Re: PyPy 4.0.0 Released – A Jit with SIMD Vectorization and More

#105

Post by orf »

vegabook wrote: post #103
rudolf0 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be the point of this? Are you suggesting PyPy forks the Python language itself? PyPy hasn't implemented new core language features, and I don't see them doing so in the future. Python 3 is actively developed, fixing many warts in the language and adding great new features. As annoying as the transition to Python 3 is, it's the future of the language. I was actually one of the curmudgeons who stuck with 2.7…

That is exactly what I am suggesting. There is no urgent necessity to add any new core language features to 2.7. That's what you 3 guys just don't get. I certainly don't need asyncio as much as I need vectorised numerics, and if I needed asyncio, I had at least 5 libraries already. I most definitely will never be type annotating Python. Cloud cuckoo land. Let me warn you. If you persist with your propaganda on Python…

> Nobody who uses Python 2.7 all day every day thinks it has any of these imaginary "worts" you 3.x guys like to pitch all day.

Maybe people who use 2.7 all day don't see the warts as much as someone who has been rid of them?

Re: PyPy 4.0.0 Released – A Jit with SIMD Vectorization and More

#106

Post by maxerickson »

BuckRogers wrote: post #99
vegabook wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll go one step further and advocate for the PyPy developers please not to port to Python 3. Here we have a project which has clearly become the go to for 2.x people who would like Python to move forward in a way which makes a real difference to them, and there is an ideal opportunity here for this to become the de-facto continuation of the 2.x line, with a real future, as an alternative to the 3.x forcefeed.

Not a bad idea. It would certainly elevate the project to unforeseen heights and probably turn them ( http://www.baroquesoftware.com/ ) into very wealthy men while offering a very desired and needed service for many businesses. While harming no one who didn't already harm themselves. More relevant than CPython3 overnight, which is of significant stature. If prestige and money are desirable things, absolute no brainer…

They are already willing to take money to work on Python 2.7 stuff, how does refusing to take money for Python 3 stuff lead to them making more money?

Re: PyPy 4.0.0 Released – A Jit with SIMD Vectorization and More

#107

Post by vegabook »

orf wrote: post #105
vegabook wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is exactly what I am suggesting. There is no urgent necessity to add any new core language features to 2.7. That's what you 3 guys just don't get. I certainly don't need asyncio as much as I need vectorised numerics, and if I needed asyncio, I had at least 5 libraries already. I most definitely will never be type annotating Python. Cloud cuckoo land. Let me warn you. If you persist with your propaganda on Python…

> Nobody who uses Python 2.7 all day every day thinks it has any of these imaginary "worts" you 3.x guys like to pitch all day. Maybe people who use 2.7 all day don't see the warts as much as someone who has been rid of them?

It took me a week struggling with Asyncio to wrap my mind around it. It took me 12 hours to do the same with Golang channels.

I got 20 000 inserts per second from a 360 gig JSON file into Cassandra using 30 goroutines. I was maxing out at 900 in Python 3. Golang was parsing the JSON at a frankly RIDICULOUS 2 million lines per second. Python 3 was around 50 thousand.

Python 3 is adding features that other languages do better. Python smashes other languages in numerics, and approachability. Nobody needs 3 for numerics, and 3 goes backwards in approachability. If you're using 3 for its back-end tools, you're using the wrong tool.

I would never move to golang for numerics because pandas/numpy/scipy/theano stomp all over it, but its only for numerics that I'll stay with Python. Everything else I'm moving away (mostly Golang, looking at Elixir) and talking to the numeric stack over zeroMQ/msgpack.

Re: PyPy 4.0.0 Released – A Jit with SIMD Vectorization and More

#109

Post by vegabook »

maxerickson wrote: post #106
BuckRogers wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a bad idea. It would certainly elevate the project to unforeseen heights and probably turn them ( http://www.baroquesoftware.com/ ) into very wealthy men while offering a very desired and needed service for many businesses. While harming no one who didn't already harm themselves. More relevant than CPython3 overnight, which is of significant stature. If prestige and money are desirable things, absolute no brainer…

They are already willing to take money to work on Python 2.7 stuff, how does refusing to take money for Python 3 stuff lead to them making more money?

It would show leadership. Leadership which is demonstrably lacking in the 3.x line. Thus they could take a (risky but calculated) bet to take over Python completely.

Re: PyPy 4.0.0 Released – A Jit with SIMD Vectorization and More

#110

Post by BuckRogers »

vegabook wrote: post #102
BuckRogers wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a bad idea. It would certainly elevate the project to unforeseen heights and probably turn them ( http://www.baroquesoftware.com/ ) into very wealthy men while offering a very desired and needed service for many businesses. While harming no one who didn't already harm themselves. More relevant than CPython3 overnight, which is of significant stature. If prestige and money are desirable things, absolute no brainer…

Couldn't agree more. This could well be Python 4! (though my original comment is going lighter grey by the minute so clearly the Python 3 thought police are out in force this afternoon/evening).

I think your ideas are relatively safe here, just don't go to reddit expecting your freethinking Python2 heathenism to be accepted. ;) I'm afraid some of those folks are making there way over here though.

I know you're not suggesting use the name Python4 but it would be interesting to know the possible trademark issues. I'd expect Guido and the core devs to get nasty if they called it Python4. It would probably be too close to war. Announcing PyPy an official fork of Python probably already has them hesitating from backlash. In the end, the gain is bigger than any vocal Python3 folks could muster. I think both sides want PyPy pretty bad but currently in reality it's a 2.x advantage.

They already have a great name, the implementation and language could be PyPy(4+).

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