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France bids to reverse tech brain drain

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Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#101

Post by something123 »

_of wrote: post #44
fdej wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression living in France for the last year is very similar to yours. It's the mecca of paperwork (but doing taxes was relatively easy). And if you're required to supply some documentation from another country, you're likely to be required to get it translated to French by an official translator (which not only takes time but can be quite expensive). In contrast, I've never had a problem handing in German docume…

The catch-22 applies to U.S. as well. Renting an apartment requires a credit score, which you get from having a credit card, which you can only get by having a credit score.

There are starter cards for people that don't have an established credit history. It's really not complicated - stop trying to make it out to be something it's not

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#102

Post by digikata »

LBarret wrote: post #95
fdej wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression living in France for the last year is very similar to yours. It's the mecca of paperwork (but doing taxes was relatively easy). And if you're required to supply some documentation from another country, you're likely to be required to get it translated to French by an official translator (which not only takes time but can be quite expensive). In contrast, I've never had a problem handing in German docume…

Funny. I had to translate french document to get something from an american bank. Rigidity goes both ways.

Govt bureaucracy, Corporate bureaucracy, they just need to be part of a large enough organization with an insufficient connection to their customer base.

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#103

Post by renaudg »

jseliger wrote: post #87
renaudg wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a few exceptions, French employers are not the problem, they do pay the same price for you as in other European countries, more or less ! The difference is that your average engineer in France costs them around 1.5-2.5 times the total take home pay, because of high, compulsory labor taxes. In exchange, employees get as standard : * a top notch, virtually free healthcare system with no concept of exclusions or "p…

Interesting post. That being said, point one isn't that important for most young healthy people. Point three is in the distant future: I'd rather have a dollar today than one forty years from now. Point four is not very important for highly paid engineers. Point two may be the most interesting one: for a given individual, it may make the most sense to get high-quality French education and then go out and earn high-en…

Absolutely,

And short of counting on the young & healthy expats' patriotism and sense of duty (or going the US route and taxing citizens on their worldwide income) the only way out for France is to make itself slightly more attractive to net contributors / high earners again, by cutting taxes & benefits slightly, so that balance is restored.

But people and organizations on the receiving end of welfare will hear none of it and don't understand they're killing the golden goose. They'd much rather see a citizenship-based tax obligation like the US has (oddly, as it's a very socialist idea)

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#104

Post by digikata »

nip wrote: post #54
david_p wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our startup was created in France 2,5 years ago. Here is our experience: Some of us started working on the project while getting unemployment benefits (huge boost). We get (very) affordable office spaces from the city and various incubators (we are located in Paris). We are able to live on first customers + 0% loans from the state + hundreds of thousands of euros in various grants for innovation ( http://www.bpifranc…

Fellow french here. I left France last year officially to finish my studies, unofficially to launch my startup. Where? In Estonia: - 250€ for the rent in a shared flat, everything included (winter time, so more 200€ the rest of the year) 10min by feet from the city center, in the most vibrant district. - Free public transportation (but Tallinn being a human-sized city, it doesn't really matter). - I incorporated and…

How does healthcare work there?

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#105

Post by smcl »

fdej wrote: post #16
onli wrote: post #6

Maybe France really changed a lot. But be not mistaken: It is still the most bureaucratic country on earth. Anecdote: I'm doing a PhD in France. Each year, one has to do a re-inscription. In Germany, that means sending money to the university. In France, that means sending in – let me count, I have them on my desk – 17 documents, and to pay as well of course (preferred way: with a check. Like it is 50 years ago). The…

My impression living in France for the last year is very similar to yours. It's the mecca of paperwork (but doing taxes was relatively easy). And if you're required to supply some documentation from another country, you're likely to be required to get it translated to French by an official translator (which not only takes time but can be quite expensive). In contrast, I've never had a problem handing in German docume…

Re the catch-22: I wonder the degree to which you're affected by this depends on how seriously you take it (sort of like Kafka's "The Trial"). Could you maybe just supply any address (your workplace, some other contact) and get round it that way? There's still a handful of people who this won't help - folks rich/skilled enough to move countries without having a job or contacts and those unfortunate enough to have fled another and entered as a refugee.

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#106

Post by troebr »

xacaxulu wrote: post #61

As soon as French salaries come ANYWHERE CLOSE to similar salaries in London or the US or even Berlin, then maybe I'd consider it. France just isn't competitive on the salary front, hence the brain drain.

I think we should compare quality of life instead of salary. You'll make 3 times the salary in the US, but:

- no pension for your retirement (you have to save)

- prohibitive health care costs even with insurance

- prohibitive higher education costs, and even for younger kids if you don't go the public school route

- vacation policies up to the employer (can be ok as a software engineer though, but definitely not up to what you'd get in France)

- maternity leaves up to the employer

All in all, sure I have more money than when I was in France, but my quality of life is not significantly better. I can afford more stuff, but that's about it, and I'm not sure it's still true once you have a family.

And in general no safety nets, you have to build your own. You can be fired at will in a lot of states.

My biggest gripes with France are:

- most of the interesting tech jobs are in Paris. I don't like Paris (it's personal, I just hated living in Paris).

- absurd tech consulting companies (ssii, 90% of them exist solely to make up for how hard it is to [hf]ire in France)

- management vs engineering: engineers are under compensated compared to managers, a brilliant engineer has to become a manager at some point to evolve in their careers. Companies like to pretend that they have a management and a tech track, but you're almost always better off taking the management track. This can be somewhat true in some industries in the US, but it's not as prevalent as it is in France.

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#107

Post by Jacqued »

renaudg wrote: post #96
xacaxulu wrote: post #61

As soon as French salaries come ANYWHERE CLOSE to similar salaries in London or the US or even Berlin, then maybe I'd consider it. France just isn't competitive on the salary front, hence the brain drain.

I'm a French expat in London so I know what you're saying, but look at my post above and consider what comes with the salary in France... you're not comparing apples to apples here.

I'm not the GP but I hear your argument. It's a very compelling one when you have a family or are getting older.

To a twenty-something however, pension & healthcare don't seem like very compelling arguments compared with just being paid 80% more for the same job. The only thing that has kept me in Paris until now is that all my friends live here, but the London salaries attraction is getting stronger every month.

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#108

Post by mafribe »

denzil_correa wrote: post #81
germanier wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pay cash at the bakery, to get a coffee, to load my canteen card at work, and to buy bus tickets in small cities at the driver, that's it. Buying used cars is usually done by cash (even 10k and more). Almost everywhere else you can pay with a German debit card (Girocard). But credit Cards are coming fast to Germany. Since a few weeks even the cheapest supermarkets, including Aldi, started to accept MasterCard and V…

The problem with credit cards in Germany is that they don't use 2FA. It's the same old signature system. Even online transactions don't require 2FA.

That really depends on the specific bank. I've got a debit card from a Sparkasse with Chip+PIN and 2FA for online transaction for quite a few years.

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#109

Post by wnevets »

JohnTHaller wrote: post #79
rifung wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's not entirely true. I went through the process somewhat recently, and you can get a credit card by depositing some money first and using that as your max credit. That way the bank doesn't take any risk but you can build up your credit.

It's called a secured credit card... as in it's secured by your balance with the bank. Using it helps build your credit score and history so you can get a standard credit card. I have a friend doing this now who's just never used credit before. It's more of an issue today since so many people just use their debit cards whereas years ago people used cash and credit cards. If you wanted the convenience of not carrying…

> That's how today you wind up with someone in their late 20s that's never had a credit card or a loan.

This was me till I was 28. I was able to skip having to use a secured credit card by getting a joint card with someone who already has great credit.

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#110

Post by buserror »

xacaxulu wrote: post #61

As soon as French salaries come ANYWHERE CLOSE to similar salaries in London or the US or even Berlin, then maybe I'd consider it. France just isn't competitive on the salary front, hence the brain drain.

I moved to the UK in 99; At the time I worked for a startup and was getting around 12000FF 'brut' (pre taxes, outside paris (Sophia)). At the time, the GBP was around 10FF (roughtly, in fact, more like 11-12).

When I moved the the UK, my first salary was 44000 GBP/y, so that was bringing me around 2500 GBP a month, /post taxes/ (PAYE).

I could not believe my EYES when I saw my payslip... These 12000FF were the equivalent of around 7000FF (post tax) so by crossing the channel, I multiplied my pay by easily 3.5. And I had a great time at that company, despite my pretty accented english. Of course life was generally more expensive, but /nowhere/ near 3.5 times more expensive.

Of course, income might have levelled up since, but since then, I've had 15 years of working for the best companies in the industry (ie, worldwide names), increased my experience and income, and all of that with minimum red tape. I created my own LTD company with just 240 GBP almost zero bureaucracy; you can pretty much calculate your tax bills in your head too.

I love it. I'd never go back, I'd never had dreamed of the stuff I have achieved here during that time, when I was still living in france.

Of course, there are downsides, it's a lot closer to the US in the fact you need to handle your own pension strategy, healthcare etc, but for people who have a drive and will to do stuff, it's a LOT easier to get things done here.

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