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The ethics of modern web ad-blocking

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Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking

#101

Post by bediger4000 »

netrus wrote: post #84
Spivak wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but it's my car so I can take off all the manufacturer and dealer badges.

Even if you got the car for free, because the manufacturer wants people to see you driving it? Sounds unethical to me.

That's quite a bit different - there's probably a contractual (legal) obligation there.

I use my bandwidth to retrieve the web page, and my CPU/GPU time to render it. Arguably, my computer is doing some of the work for the "content creator" in any case. If we're going the Car Analogy Route, then I think the situation is more like you've bought some blueprints and chunks of metal. You machined the chunks of metal into parts, and then assembled a car. Does Ford or VW or GM get to demand that you put their badges/plates/etc on it?

This is to point out that physical analogies are slippery at best.

Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking

#103

Post by loco5niner »

RodericDay wrote: post #76
chatmasta wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If these costs are being borne evenly, then it's complete societal waste. That doesn't make sense. You are saying because User reads Content, Advertiser pays Content, and User pays Advertiser, that the middle step of Advertiser paying Content is unnecessary, because User could pay Content. Simple counterexample: I like reading techcrunch, but would never pay for it. But I might see an ad for a new device that I lik…

See, I really like markets, and I have a problem with phrases like: > I like reading techcrunch, but would never pay for it. Sounds to me a lot like Mitt Romney talking about how his wife has the most important job in the world, but she's essentially his unpaid housewife. Sounds hollow. You are paying for techcrunch, by buying products advertised on it. It would be good for the finances of everyone in society to know…

> Sounds to me a lot like Mitt Romney talking about how his wife has the most important job in the world, but she's essentially his unpaid housewife. Sounds hollow.

No, he's actually saying that raising the next generation is the most important job in the world. aka, Mom. And I think he's right.

Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking

#104

Post by andrepd »

RodericDay wrote: post #85
aembleton wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He might have had the need before seeing the ad but hadn't seen a solution. Adverts are at their basic level a way of informing end users about what they can purchase. They are also there to try and raise brand awareness. People are more likely to trust a brand that they have heard of rather than some unknown.

> People are more likely to trust a brand that they have heard of rather than some unknown. Is this a good thing?

Not at all. Makes brands with colossal marketing budgets sell more despite there being better alternatives from small companies. But that's how human consumption works, and it's virtually impossible to change that.

Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking

#105

Post by zokier »

jpmattia wrote: post #12

I'm beginning to find the various articles about ad-blocking fatuous, and I doubt I'm the only one. Ads served via a centralized vendor can be blocked trivially, and people are choosing to block them. You can make a whole lot of arguments about ethics, or you can just admit that it's a broken business model. Worse, it is becoming apparent that ads increase the attack surface. Failing to clean that up will cause armie…

Do you also think that selling movies is broken business model because movies can pirated trivially?

Or that free software is broken model because GPL can be violated trivially?

Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking

#106

Post by TuringTest »

eli wrote: post #44
13 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Websites offering self hosted, static advertising isn't so much of a problem as random bits of javascript and tracking cookies loaded from god knows where every time you load a page. Harder to block, the advertiser needs to pass their content through the hoster which assures some level of quality and relevance, and some level of privacy for the end viewers.

And yet ad blockers generally try as hard as they can to block all types of ads.

Except for those that don't.

Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking

#107

Post by imgabe »

aylons wrote: post #69
chatmasta wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If these costs are being borne evenly, then it's complete societal waste. That doesn't make sense. You are saying because User reads Content, Advertiser pays Content, and User pays Advertiser, that the middle step of Advertiser paying Content is unnecessary, because User could pay Content. Simple counterexample: I like reading techcrunch, but would never pay for it. But I might see an ad for a new device that I lik…

In your example, there are two possibilities: either you did want and need to buy the product before the advertisement or you didn't. In the first case, the advertisement was wasteful: the company that sold you the product has unnecessarily spent money, which goes to the product price. And this is not a small amount: big consumer companies spend billions on advertisement space/time alone, an amount comparable to thei…

In the first case, you know you need some product, but not necessarily which one. You need a pair of shoes, but are you going to get Reeboks, Nike, Asics, or what? They all serve the need you originally had, advertising is just directing you towards one or the other.

Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking

#108

Post by joosters »

otis_inf wrote: post #98
arenaninja wrote: post #86

I whitelist ads on websites now, and I wish I could do the same on my phone. I think someone here or on reddit mentioned, and I had the same experience, trying out IE Edge and it being a decent browser, but as soon as the autoplaying video ads start, I downloaded FF, added uBlock and didn't look back. I use the same browser setup on my phone, and now and then I use some apps that emulate a browser (like Reddit is Fun…

Why whitelist ads at all? Ads are evil, the ad agencies track you, you run the risk of viruses / malware (like the recent 0-day exploit on a russian news site through ads), and there's zero gain for the person visiting the site.

I understand the idea of whitelisting sites that you want to support, but even that is tricky when their ads are provided by a myriad of ad companies, clearinghouses and ad auction sites. So even if the original website is good and trustworthy, the ad networks that you let through could still ruin you.

Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking

#109

Post by unprepare »

reasonishy wrote: post #13
RodericDay wrote: post #7

What I really can't understand, that permeates this whole discussion, is plenty of people that try to sell the idea that ads let us have content "for free", and that all we have to tolerate is "a little annoyance". It's insane. If companies are buying ad-space, it's because they expect to get more business in return. This means that someone out there is being influenced by said ads, so that if the content cost X to p…

Advertising is the method most people use to discover new products/services. Of course these days the line is often blurred. So half the posts on HN could be adverts, and you wouldn't really know about it. In fact lots of them are adverts. But just think about how the world would work without advertising. How would you know there's a star wars movie coming out? How would you know about new products and services you m…

>Advertising is the method most people use to discover new products/services.

Do you have a source for that?

>How would you know there's a star wars movie coming out?

By being interested in science fiction movies, being part of a community of people with like interests, theater showtimes, etc.

Why do i need to know 6 months beforehand that a star wars movie will eventually come out?

Why would i need to know any sooner than a week before the release date?

>How would you know about new products and services you might be interested in buying.

By having an interest in buying them, and then doing research regarding which product will best fit my needs.

>which tell me about companies who provide things I might be interested in

Or do the advertisements give you an itch and a tool to scratch it?

>which has many adverts related to bee-keeping. That's valuable

In what way?

Are you incapable of finding a new bee-keeping related product without first seeing an advertisement?

Can you not google the item you need and then compare the options amongst each other?

Can you not simply search on amazon or some bee-keeping friendly retailer?

Are you not part of a community of bee-keepers who you can ask for recommendations about products?

If you've ever heard of:

Costco

Krispy Kreme

Kiehls

Spanx

Lululemon

Rolls Royce

Zara

Jiffy muffin mix

NO-AD sunscreen

Then you've disproven you're entire argument, as those are all brands that have $0 advertising budget, and do no advertising.

Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking

#110

Post by fwn »

RodericDay wrote: post #76
chatmasta wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If these costs are being borne evenly, then it's complete societal waste. That doesn't make sense. You are saying because User reads Content, Advertiser pays Content, and User pays Advertiser, that the middle step of Advertiser paying Content is unnecessary, because User could pay Content. Simple counterexample: I like reading techcrunch, but would never pay for it. But I might see an ad for a new device that I lik…

See, I really like markets, and I have a problem with phrases like: > I like reading techcrunch, but would never pay for it. Sounds to me a lot like Mitt Romney talking about how his wife has the most important job in the world, but she's essentially his unpaid housewife. Sounds hollow. You are paying for techcrunch, by buying products advertised on it. It would be good for the finances of everyone in society to know…

No, paying for a website and being the reason some website is enabled to make money aren't the same things.

This is because the most important part in the whole process of wealth creation is it's incentive structure. Reducing it to the end state money distribution is like ripping a dimension off the market.

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