I have a bachelor degree in EE and have been programming since 2 years, and also doing penetration testing since i love security, yet i have not even managed to get an interview at any company i applied to , don't even know what is the problem .
The Unemployable Programmer
11–20 of 464 posts
Re: The Unemployable Programmer
#12I can empathize. Perhaps getting involved in open source would help?
The OP was a little bit light on details of the exact work under-taken at the 'company' but I'm guessing it wouldn't be interesting enough to pass the sift of most recruiters.
That's tough but with Open source you could get involved in anything you felt like, make a contribution, get recognition and reboot/re-skill that way?
Still, it's not an easy or quick solution though and YMMV.
Re: The Unemployable Programmer
#13One thing that might help is to stop selling yourself down. Like me, you are a giant risk because you have no degree. However, risks are taken all the time if somebody decides that there is a good chance that the risk will pan out.
Show to them why you are a worthwhile risk instead of showing them that you are more of a risk than you are.
Re: The Unemployable Programmer
#14I sympathize with your trouble but what you describe seems exaggerated to me.
If within a year you made only a thousand dollars, why didn't you spend more time working on a side project, or sharpening your skills? Maybe the ones you currently have are not much in demand?
Also, freelancing sites do have a lot of low quality jobs, but if you spend some time digging around you can find decent jobs; e.g. I, a poor country resident, have found jobs that made me in a week as much as you claim to have made within the year.
And btw, I'm thirty-something, university drop-out and with a couple of huge holes in my CV. But that's not what I bring forward when asking for a job. Instead I project the most confident image that I have for myself and that's my advice to you, too (i.e. don't focus on the negativity of your current situation, it's not going to help you find a job).
Re: The Unemployable Programmer
#15The developers we hire in their 40s don't all have degrees, but what they do have is relevant experience. Now that relevance may be domain knowledge in the industry, or it might be experience with particular part of our stack - the classic example is the very experienced Oracle developer. You'll all too easily lose out to the young, hungry graduate who will also need to learn lots of things on the job, but doesn't come with as much baggage.
The OP might well have lots of relevant experience but it hardly comes across in the post. Neither does any appreciation, or indeed even an active lack of appreciation, that "knowing people" is the way to break through the HR process. After 20+ years in development there's a degree of expectation that you have built bridges along the way with people who can recommend you - because they want to work with you again. Because that's the flip side of being the experienced hire, you need to have the soft skills to utilise that experience - be it coaching and mentoring, writing well, negotiating and influencing etc.
Re: The Unemployable Programmer
#16What about an on-line cursus, like, at Stanford, studying and getting the diploma. Of course, it may not be considered equivalent to the diploma obtained at Stanford in the Silicon Valley, but it would change you to a diplomed programmer, and you might get more doors open? http://online.stanford.edu/ There are others MOOC: http://coursera.org/ http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm
OP's age might (will) still work against him even with a diploma. There is still a perception in IT that anything to do with technology is for the young and hip (even though the Internet is 20 years old and digital gaming even older, but ho hum). It's ridiculous and annoying and there are too many young people willing to be taken advantage of in return for grok-only-knows-what they think they are getting.
Re: The Unemployable Programmer
#17> When companies find out I don't have a degree that's usually the end of the road.
I have a difficult time believing this. I've worked for & know of companies through connections that care 10x more about your portfolio than degree. We've passed on Stanford grads & even a guy who worked at NASA, because they just couldn't physically bring themselves to code when we needed them too, they couldn't sit in front of a computer & actually build out a test feature despite loving to talk intelligently about the problem. It's not nerves... Degrees/ credentials can create these terrible comfort bubbles that prevent programmers from actually diving in & being productive. When you've been around enough it's easy to spot this type.
In my experience, portfolio is the #1 factor, and I think most companies would take you seriously if you have one w/ at least a couple full, impressive projects.
Re: The Unemployable Programmer
#18I feel I can relate to this general life story. A lot. While I'm currently only vaguely looking for a job, I also share the same suspicions about general job options for freelancers - although I have to say that I have been extremely lucky in finding work so far. But I agree it sometimes looks like our work isn't very valuable.
In this context I have to say though that the HN freelancer thread, while yielding uneven results, has mostly been very good to me. (YMMV)
The deeper problem as far as the actual hiring process is concerned, however, might be - as hinted at in the article - the amount of work and hoop-jumping necessary just to earn the privilege of showing up for work. I found this astonishing, too, especially given the fact that most programming positions probably have a high turnover rate, and I believe it does have to do with hundreds of applicants showing up for a single position. The ensuing filter process is not only a drain on the applicants, but also on the companies that are paralyzed with making this decision.
I believe the mere existence of TripleByte and SmartHires shows over-supply is a problem, and it's underscored by the fact that they have no problems turning people away.
Re: The Unemployable Programmer
#19I think being around 40 with a decade of dev experience should be pretty attractive, at least if the programming experience is somewhat modern. 10 years OO-programming should be translatable to any OO language with ease, regardless of what you actually used before, for example.
There are "unemployable" developers out there, but they are 10-20 years older and have 15 years of niche in-house platforms in some huge enterprise, and now they have no experience with anything anyone recognizes.
Unemployable because just 1 company on CV, no degree and around 40? Sounds strange.
Re: The Unemployable Programmer
#20Here's the dirty little secret about "employability" you hardly ever read about in places like HN:
It's not about you. It's about your user and what they accomplish with the tools you build for them.
It doesn't matter who you are, what you know, what education you have, where you've worked before, what turns you on, or what you think is cool. It only matters what you can do for others.
It's really that fucking simple.
So forget about all the window dressing and find a way to demonstrate to others what you can do for them. The first step is to find out what they really need.
Like many others here, I am self taught, pretty decent, and love what I do. But the thing that has always separated me from other just as capable but "umemployable" programmers has been my absolute resolve to program for others, not myself.
I even remember one interview when I didn't present a resume, but instead a one-page project plan itemizing exactly what I would build over the next 90 days to help them solve their problem. I got the job instantly. (An extreme example, but you get the idea.)
I have never lacked work. And I'm confident I never will with this attitude. Try it, please.