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The Supreme Court's Crucial Mistake About Sex Crime Statistics

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Re: The Supreme Court's Crucial Mistake About Sex Crime Statistics

#11
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It truly is astonishing sometimes just what a remarkably thought-terminating taboo the topic of rape and sexual assault is. Of course it's a gravely serious one, but I don't exaggerate when I say most people are more comfortable talking about genocide than they are about rape. Is it because a mass atrocity is more impersonal, or is there a degree of puritanism to the whole angle? That said, mjg59 has always been a ve…

Because nobody will suspect you of having both the intention and power to carry out genocide.

Unless you're white and male, and then you'll be accused by the radical fringe as wanting to rape everything you come across and kill everyone not like you.

Re: The Supreme Court's Crucial Mistake About Sex Crime Statistics

#12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It truly is astonishing sometimes just what a remarkably thought-terminating taboo the topic of rape and sexual assault is. Of course it's a gravely serious one, but I don't exaggerate when I say most people are more comfortable talking about genocide than they are about rape. Is it because a mass atrocity is more impersonal, or is there a degree of puritanism to the whole angle? That said, mjg59 has always been a ve…

Because nobody will suspect you of having both the intention and power to carry out genocide.

So because it's more impersonal, then.

Re: The Supreme Court's Crucial Mistake About Sex Crime Statistics

#13

Unless I am missing some hidden biases this seems an interesting discussion with some worthwhile thinking material. It does not seem like a "rape apologist", whatever that is. For me the main argument is a big one:: When the California Corrections Department recently examined cases of sex offender registrants returned to prison for a new offense, they found that in 88% of the cases, the new offense was a parole viola…

Eh, I'd say the bigger bit is compared to all ex-felons:

> About 3% of felons with no known history of sex offenses commit one within 4.5 years of their release.

Its pretty clear:

To justify having a subset of ex-felons [sex offenders] on the list, all ex-felons have to be on the list. Otherwise, the justification [they are sex offenders] falls flat when other types of ex-felons commit sex offenses more frequently.

Honestly, it sounds like a publicly auditable and widely accessible list of felons is likely what we need if we consider 1.8% reason to put people on a list.

Re: The Supreme Court's Crucial Mistake About Sex Crime Statistics

#14
post #6

Better be careful posting this. You don't want to be labeled by Matthew Garrett as a rape apologist[0]. [0] http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/18505.html?thread=693321

I don't think this is an appropriate parallel... apples and oranges as it were. Admittedly, I only skimmed both articles, but this article appears to be about misinformation regarding recidivism rates affecting the judgment of legislators. The article you linked is in regards to someone being confused about what constitutes rape. Why should OP be scared that somebody may label them as a rape apologist for linking thi…

I had the same thought as you, having also skimmed the articles. Having now read them more fully, it seems that patzerhacker's (admittedly, somewhat kneejerk) reaction draws closer parallels than I initially thought.

The approximation is here: http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/ted_mail/0037.html

In that email, Ted Ts'o disputes the common knowledge that 1 in 4 women are raped. It does not, in my opinion, rise to the level of rape apology (though clearly, that is subjective), and attempts to explain that perhaps the "1 in 4 women are raped" statistic (that seems pervasive) is an exaggerated claim. His best piece of evidence, IMO, is that of the women cited in the statistic that results in the 1 in 4 claim, only 1 in 4 of the 1 in 4 even categorize their own reports as "rape". Whether that's right, wrong or indifferent is not mine to say, as I can see merit on both sides of the argument.

The article here, regarding recidivism of sexual offenders is doing the exact same thing as what Ted Ts'o attempts to do, which is to take a popular, but possibly wrong statistic, and give it more context which may render the original statistic moot.

The parallels are indeed close, which makes me glad that I did not initially downvote patzerhacker's comment without reading both articles. That said, I am not savvy to the nuances of either statistic, so I cannot claim to be authoritative on either, but as a non-interested, passive observer, it seems that Ts'o's branding as a rape apologist seems unfounded, from the information that was linked in the article, and Garrett's claims seem overblown, and predicated on the false dichotomy that because Ts'o doesn't believe A, he must believe B, which does not seem to be the case in his email.

Re: The Supreme Court's Crucial Mistake About Sex Crime Statistics

#15
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because nobody will suspect you of having both the intention and power to carry out genocide.

So because it's more impersonal, then.

I definitely think that's a big part of it. A lot of the people involved in these discussions probably have been sexually assaulted, but relatively few have had their lives affected by genocide (or even murder).

Puritanism probably plays a role, too. Even consensual sex is often considered an inappropriate topic, so it wouldn't be surprising if that applied doubly to rape.

Re: The Supreme Court's Crucial Mistake About Sex Crime Statistics

#16

This isn't as rare as I would like it. A few gun studies from the west coast in the 90's pulled this kind of quote without justification or attribution. Two additional things to be aware of are conditions of the study and people pulling a statistic without the full qualification. "This activity reduced X by 50%" is a popular one. It gets used when writing grants, but often the original study had very specific environ…

I've (sadly) conditioned myself to reading post hoc ergo propter hoc statements as effectively useless in today's time.

There are some statements that I suspect make intuitive conclusions, and many of which I suspect are right (e.g., availability of birth control lowers the rate of abortions and unplanned pregnancies), but even those with which I agree are relegated to the portion of my mind that holds the "do not recite this" category of statistics.

I understand why people are so susceptible to it, and indeed, what makes the scientific method so damn hard to being with, is because isolation and controls in the real world are indeed very hard to come by, but I do wish that it was something we could do less.

Re: The Supreme Court's Crucial Mistake About Sex Crime Statistics

#17
Statistics, both invented and real, are used all the time by people who want a tool to silence those who disagree with them. But two facts make this a dangerous and inaccurate form of argument: one, statistics can only be used to disprove something, and two, different studies often show wildly different results. If you actually dig into the number that people quote, you'll quickly find other studies that report different numbers, use different criteria and show different conclusions. But you'll only hear someone quote a single study, because it's the one that benefits their argument the most.

Re: The Supreme Court's Crucial Mistake About Sex Crime Statistics

#18

Unless I am missing some hidden biases this seems an interesting discussion with some worthwhile thinking material. It does not seem like a "rape apologist", whatever that is. For me the main argument is a big one:: When the California Corrections Department recently examined cases of sex offender registrants returned to prison for a new offense, they found that in 88% of the cases, the new offense was a parole viola…

Eh, I'd say the bigger bit is compared to all ex-felons: > About 3% of felons with no known history of sex offenses commit one within 4.5 years of their release. Its pretty clear: To justify having a subset of ex-felons [sex offenders] on the list, all ex-felons have to be on the list. Otherwise, the justification [they are sex offenders] falls flat when other types of ex-felons commit sex offenses more frequently. H…

[deleted]

Re: The Supreme Court's Crucial Mistake About Sex Crime Statistics

#19
post #14
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is an appropriate parallel... apples and oranges as it were. Admittedly, I only skimmed both articles, but this article appears to be about misinformation regarding recidivism rates affecting the judgment of legislators. The article you linked is in regards to someone being confused about what constitutes rape. Why should OP be scared that somebody may label them as a rape apologist for linking thi…

I had the same thought as you, having also skimmed the articles. Having now read them more fully, it seems that patzerhacker's (admittedly, somewhat kneejerk) reaction draws closer parallels than I initially thought. The approximation is here: http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/ted_mail/0037.html In that email, Ted Ts'o disputes the common knowledge that 1 in 4 women are raped. It does not , in my opinion, rise to the le…

I would half-disagree. There are some high level parallels like you mentioned, but the Ted mail is attacking the statistic by it's definitions, whereas this article attacks the statistic directly because it has no basis in reality and simply persists due to the nature of politics. (Publicly trying to correct this misconception would make a judge/lawyer/politician look like a rape apologist, or weak on crime, or sexual predator friendly in headlines)

Re: The Supreme Court's Crucial Mistake About Sex Crime Statistics

#20

Better be careful posting this. You don't want to be labeled by Matthew Garrett as a rape apologist[0]. [0] http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/18505.html?thread=693321

It truly is astonishing sometimes just what a remarkably thought-terminating taboo the topic of rape and sexual assault is. Of course it's a gravely serious one, but I don't exaggerate when I say most people are more comfortable talking about genocide than they are about rape. Is it because a mass atrocity is more impersonal, or is there a degree of puritanism to the whole angle? That said, mjg59 has always been a ve…

Lets just start with "rape" being used as an all encompassing term for all sexual crimes, which can get very confusing, after all it happens everyday where someone willfully engages in sex and is simultaneously the victim of rape (e.g. statutory rape). So it is a word covering a vast topic.

Historically, victims of rape were more inclined to keep it to themselves than tell someone, because they were not believed; when they were believed nothing happened to the perpetrator; and sometimes the victims were made out to be deserving of the rape. This is not just true of women, but there are many stories of children who told their parents that people at their churches touched them and then the parents did not believe their own children (double victimization).

Lets take a single modern day accusation...Jameis Winston accused of rape by a freshman college girl. Just look online and you will find opinions on everything from: people assuming he is guilty because he is black she is white; people feeling its just another white girl making up lies about a successful black man; that the redneck town of Tallahassee was persecuting a poor black kid; that the good ol' boys club helped cover up a rape for the start football player; that she was just a drunk freshman slut or a gold digger; that he later didn't pay for crab legs from publix so he must be a rapist...it just goes on and on. The reality is there is one fact, no one knows what the hell happened, maybe even the two subjects don't know because of alcohol, but everyone has an opinion as to what happened instead of an honest conversation about prevention.

You generally won't have these types of controversies with genocide victims, because...well the victims are dead, and its hard to fake dead. Then again there are still many holocaust deniers around the world. Further, still there are many people who don't know there are active genocides taking place right now, and I'll tell you this I have talked to people about Darfur who claim that is not a genocide and I have to admit that makes me pretty damn uncomfortable.

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