Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem? • Hacker News Board

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#11

Post by personjerry » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 6:50 AM UTC

todayiamme wrote: post #4

owen_griffiths wrote: post #3

"almost all of them said they liked the work itself, but cited discriminatory environments as their main reason for leaving" If the work environment is not to women' liking and has no bearing on outcome, where are all the successful companies formed by women who want a more friendly environment? "This is a huge, unnecessary, and expensive loss of talent in a field facing a supposed talent shortage." Again, if true, s…

I try to usually stay away from such debates, but I've thought a lot about the point you're making: if people are being irrational with respect to hiring then clearly the solution is to start a company that isn't ageist, sexist, or any -ist by formalising the hiring logic and finding people who share something deep - like a passion for building things - in common. But after talking to people and many, many companies,…

Sure, you may believe that to be the case, but in the meantime, others may believe that, exactly due to the lack of a company that has swooped up all these people, that there is no such opportunity.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#12

Post by malandrew » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 6:52 AM UTC

A few questions:

What does it mean to "leave the field"? Does that mean to no longer practice low-level work or to leave the industry entirely for another industry? If it is the former, does moving into management or another complementary area (like moving from engineering to product management) qualify as leaving the field?

So what I've always been curious about is what percentage of women leave other fields? It would be nice to have numbers to compare it to there.

Also, what percentage of men leave the field? If "leaving the field" is defined as no longer actively practicing software engineering and instead doing more human contact work (like managing), then I would expect a significant number of men to leave the field at all.

I'm not trying to dismiss the number out of hand, but merely demonstrate that it's a useless figure to bandy about with context or comparison.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#13

Post by malandrew » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 7:00 AM UTC

shoo wrote: post #9

More generally, not specific to the dear tech industry, there's been a fantastic discussion on metafilter titled "“Where’s My Cut?”: On Unpaid Emotional Labor" [1]. If you are a person who has personal/professional relationships with other people, it's probably worth a read [2]. Anyhow, I'll quote an excerpt from one of the comments: > A married man is considered (in the sociology findings) to bring "more than" one p…

Also sounds like a bias against men. Men are perfectly capable of feeding and dressing themselves. And while I don't know what exactly "cruise directing" means in this context, there is no reason to believe that men aren't also capable of doing that either.

I just got out of a relationship where I handled all those responsibilities. I wasn't compensated for it, nor did I expect to be. Insofar as my own generation is concerned, I've encountered lots of men that cook. In fact, I have known more men that cook than women. I also know more men than women, but the relative frequency seems about equal between the sexes.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#14

Post by T2_t2 » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 7:00 AM UTC

Serious question: why are women so harsh to EACH OTHER? From the article:

> both men and women were significantly more likely to hire a male applicant than a female applicant with an identical record.

And from the linked studies: "Men only penalized female candidates for attempting to negotiate whereas women penalized both male and female candidates."

And the pay rates, and drops, from here http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474.full.pdf+html are both worse from female faculty - with sale offered from men 30K -> 29K vs 27K -> 25K for female faculty, and male faculty scored women higher in all categories than the female faculty.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#15

Post by Someone » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 7:02 AM UTC

danieltillett wrote: post #7

owen_griffiths wrote: post #3

"almost all of them said they liked the work itself, but cited discriminatory environments as their main reason for leaving" If the work environment is not to women' liking and has no bearing on outcome, where are all the successful companies formed by women who want a more friendly environment? "This is a huge, unnecessary, and expensive loss of talent in a field facing a supposed talent shortage." Again, if true, s…

Do VC funded female founders hire a disproportional percentage of tech women? The delta between women tech employees in male and female founded firms should tell us if a discriminatory environment is the cause.

No. You cannot rule out the possibility that women discriminate women, too, or that environmental influences from outside the work floor cause the effect.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#16

Post by gfosco » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 7:02 AM UTC

orionblastar wrote: post #2

Most likely this submission will be flagged as most sexism or racism articles get flagged. Corporate American needs a major reform. US society need a major reform. Our culture and community need major reforms. The way boys and girls are raised need to be changed, the way they are educated and develop social skills and people skills need to change as well. As it is Corporate America and the Tech industry has developed…

I don't know a single person who feels the need to work that hard, and benefits and conditions for parents have never been better. It doesn't make sense for a guy who hasn't worked in 12 years to tell us how it is. Sorry you couldn't handle the stress of life and the choices you made.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#17

Post by malandrew » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 7:08 AM UTC

mehwoot wrote: post #6

owen_griffiths wrote: post #3

"almost all of them said they liked the work itself, but cited discriminatory environments as their main reason for leaving" If the work environment is not to women' liking and has no bearing on outcome, where are all the successful companies formed by women who want a more friendly environment? "This is a huge, unnecessary, and expensive loss of talent in a field facing a supposed talent shortage." Again, if true, s…

Again, if true, some enterprising person should have found a way to tap all the amazing talent. Only if you actually believe the market is 100% efficient and everyone has perfect information. After a few bad experiences, someone isn't going to keep trying the same jobs, they are going to move industries. Yes, there probably are companies out there that are good to work for as a woman in tech and they probably get som…

What industries do they typically move to and why did they choose those industries?

Do they choose work of similar nature but in industries without the same biases or do they move to industries where the nature of the labor involved is very different?

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#18

Post by ulikunkel » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 7:09 AM UTC

owen_griffiths wrote: post #3

"almost all of them said they liked the work itself, but cited discriminatory environments as their main reason for leaving" If the work environment is not to women' liking and has no bearing on outcome, where are all the successful companies formed by women who want a more friendly environment? "This is a huge, unnecessary, and expensive loss of talent in a field facing a supposed talent shortage." Again, if true, s…

Yes, all everyone talks about is making changes to create a more friendly and equal work environment. I never see any good ideas to achieve this.

Nobody is against this, but work is work, it can't be pleasant all the time. There is competition and money needs to be made. You can learn to compete or not play, that's your choice. Assuming its easier for majorities already working in the field is frankly a bit insulting.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#19

Post by malandrew » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 7:10 AM UTC

sanxiyn wrote: post #10

"When Google increased paid maternity leave from 12 weeks to 18 weeks, the number of new moms who quit Google dropped by 50%." This seems to be such a spectacularly good result that I wonder why they haven't tried it sooner.

If maternity leave policies are a major reason for retention, what are the figures for other industries? It's not like only women in tech want to have kids and are impacted by maternity leave policies.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#20

Post by Banzaaaai » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 7:12 AM UTC

From my experience:

1. It is a pipeline problem (I never got as much women applications as I wanted, even with targeting a women audience)

2. It is a problem of not enough role models for women (so women do not see themselves in tech and do not aspire for tech careers or for becoming CTOs - women CTOs go a long way here).

3. It is a problem of the vile and toxicity of the tech community in general (just see all the fights over programming languages, about being right vs. understanding each other). And the bro culture in some places.

4. It is a problem of women in general being more risk averse (so they gamble less with salaries or risk to push for promotion)

5. It is a problem of job ads (male focused, where males might say 'Ah I can do all those things' and women might say 'I don't know all the things they want') and the recruiting process in general.