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New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

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Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#11

Post by Tomte »

tptacek wrote: post #6

I know that this is a tricky question to engage with on HN, but is there a major-market country in Europe --- say, from the list of Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, and Finland --- that is fundamentally more privacy-friendly than the US, in black-letter terms? US privacy laws have loopholes you can drive a truck through. But the limite…

It's hard to say because few people are well-versed in US law and the law of their country (actually, many Germans seem toknow more about US law than German law because of TV), not to mention several European countries.

One thing pointing to the importance of privacy in mainstream German law is that our Constitution Court literally invented a basic right to the integrity of information-technological system. Actually invented it.

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#12

Post by tptacek »

Tomte wrote: post #11
tptacek wrote: post #6

I know that this is a tricky question to engage with on HN, but is there a major-market country in Europe --- say, from the list of Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, and Finland --- that is fundamentally more privacy-friendly than the US, in black-letter terms? US privacy laws have loopholes you can drive a truck through. But the limite…

It's hard to say because few people are well-versed in US law and the law of their country (actually, many Germans seem toknow more about US law than German law because of TV), not to mention several European countries. One thing pointing to the importance of privacy in mainstream German law is that our Constitution Court literally invented a basic right to the integrity of information-technological system. Actually…

I know! I've found it very difficult to "research" this online.

I'm kind of hoping that enough people know the principles behind the laws of their own countries that we could productively compare notes.

What are the parameters of the "integrity" right for IT systems in Germany? What kinds of stories could I look for to see what it's limits are? Rights always conflict with each other; there's always a "but".

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#13

Post by Tomte »

tptacek wrote: post #10
ChuckMcM wrote: post #8

So does Dutch law actually recognize the UN's International Covenant[1] ? While a country can be a signatory to the covenant, it is just a popularity stunt until there are locally enacted laws which provide for enforcement of its provisions. It isn't like UN Peacekeepers are going to come parachuting in to your rescue. Also the comment about Mass surveillance is incorrect. While it may not have found any terrorism su…

Parallel construction should be unlawful. The point of the exclusionary rule for evidence is to address the incentives of law enforcement. It's not a recognition that specific pieces of evidence are somehow tainted and untrustworthy. That's a broken premise parallel construction seems to rely on. But then a follow-on question: for the big 3 EU countries, what are the exclusionary principle rules? From a little resear…

Germany: none at all (barring extreme cases), and that's really the overwhelming mainstream opinion of German scholars. Only defenders lament it.

The idea is that much harm comes from letting people walk, just because the police did an honest mistake. Or even a willful, outrageous thing.

Punishing the police officer should be enough to deter such behavior.

I think that it's a reasonable stance, but I'm not invested into it much.

I tend to see it as another example where we try to find a reasoned and weighted position, whereas America usually takes a very black and white approach.

I don't mean that disparagingly, it's a valid position. Just an observation.

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#14

Post by ionised »

tptacek wrote: post #6

I know that this is a tricky question to engage with on HN, but is there a major-market country in Europe --- say, from the list of Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, and Finland --- that is fundamentally more privacy-friendly than the US, in black-letter terms? US privacy laws have loopholes you can drive a truck through. But the limite…

Nope. They're all as bad as eachother, except the UK which is by far the worst of all of them (USA included).

In the USA at least though, there is the illusion of having some form of debate over privacy and surveillance (USA Freedom Act).

In the UK and EU they aren't even pretending to have this debate. They're just steaming right on ahead with draconian and regressive policies.

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#15

Post by Tomte »

tptacek wrote: post #12
Tomte wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to say because few people are well-versed in US law and the law of their country (actually, many Germans seem toknow more about US law than German law because of TV), not to mention several European countries. One thing pointing to the importance of privacy in mainstream German law is that our Constitution Court literally invented a basic right to the integrity of information-technological system. Actually…

I know! I've found it very difficult to "research" this online. I'm kind of hoping that enough people know the principles behind the laws of their own countries that we could productively compare notes. What are the parameters of the "integrity" right for IT systems in Germany? What kinds of stories could I look for to see what it's limits are? Rights always conflict with each other; there's always a "but".

Very important decisions of our Constitution Court are actually officially translated into English. The translation is only informative, of course.

http://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/SharedDocs/Entscheidu...

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#16

Post by hundt »

Tomte wrote: post #13
tptacek wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parallel construction should be unlawful. The point of the exclusionary rule for evidence is to address the incentives of law enforcement. It's not a recognition that specific pieces of evidence are somehow tainted and untrustworthy. That's a broken premise parallel construction seems to rely on. But then a follow-on question: for the big 3 EU countries, what are the exclusionary principle rules? From a little resear…

Germany: none at all (barring extreme cases), and that's really the overwhelming mainstream opinion of German scholars. Only defenders lament it. The idea is that much harm comes from letting people walk, just because the police did an honest mistake. Or even a willful, outrageous thing. Punishing the police officer should be enough to deter such behavior. I think that it's a reasonable stance, but I'm not invested i…

Do the police officers actually get punished in Germany?

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#18

Post by rndswisscitizen »

tptacek wrote: post #6

I know that this is a tricky question to engage with on HN, but is there a major-market country in Europe --- say, from the list of Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, and Finland --- that is fundamentally more privacy-friendly than the US, in black-letter terms? US privacy laws have loopholes you can drive a truck through. But the limite…

I was born in Switzerland and as a child was interested in Morse telegraphy. The military paid an amateur radio course for everyone doing this. When I was 20 they realized this and put me in the electronic warfare department. Every year everyone from military has to do some repetition courses. I my department everyone was actually working on real world data during this weeks. They did regular background checks if anyone of this group had any police records. To get this records, I always had to sign a paper (I just write this to show that not even the military could just access personal information).

Every year and especially during my initial training we had to do several tests. One of the main questions which was repeated thousands times and hammered into our brains, was: on who can we spy. It was not allowed to fail in this basic tests or you had to repeat them ad nausea.

The main rule was: Never ever spy, on any circumstances, on Swiss citizens. You want to spy on foreign things? Go ahead. But never ever on our own citizens.

I actually cannot say how reality looks, just what every soldier within the electronic warfare department had to go through.

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#19

Post by tptacek »

ionised wrote: post #14
tptacek wrote: post #6

I know that this is a tricky question to engage with on HN, but is there a major-market country in Europe --- say, from the list of Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, and Finland --- that is fundamentally more privacy-friendly than the US, in black-letter terms? US privacy laws have loopholes you can drive a truck through. But the limite…

Nope. They're all as bad as eachother, except the UK which is by far the worst of all of them (USA included). In the USA at least though, there is the illusion of having some form of debate over privacy and surveillance (USA Freedom Act). In the UK and EU they aren't even pretending to have this debate. They're just steaming right on ahead with draconian and regressive policies.

I have a really hard time believing that the US is categorically better than Europe on this. Could you maybe be a bit more specific?

I think I share the opinion about the UK being worse than the US on this spectrum, and could probably flesh it out if someone very familiar with UK law was here to fact-check me.

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#20

Post by gbtw »

tptacek wrote: post #6

I know that this is a tricky question to engage with on HN, but is there a major-market country in Europe --- say, from the list of Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, and Finland --- that is fundamentally more privacy-friendly than the US, in black-letter terms? US privacy laws have loopholes you can drive a truck through. But the limite…

Iceland? They kicked the banks out and the pro-USA goverment and their three letter ties.
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