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Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

nytimes.com

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Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#11

Post by nailer »

jdimov9 wrote: post #7
yc1010 wrote: post #3

Fairplay to them, the whole point of the EU project was to make us all "Europeans" and to prevent constant disastrous fighting between states and people of the continent. Sometime in the last 10 years many people and the media in the "core" countries got all smug and uppity towards those lazy "peripherals" and so on forgetting exactly why the project was started, overnight we stopped being "Europeans" and became "und…

This might have been the cover story, but is VERY far from the actual reason the "EU project" exists. As with all similar noble initiatives, the EU has much less to do with fairness and much more with power concentration (as is becoming exceedingly obvious).

It also makes it easier to sell things on a Europe wide level rather than a country-by-country level.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#12

Post by vmorgulis »

yc1010 wrote: post #3

Fairplay to them, the whole point of the EU project was to make us all "Europeans" and to prevent constant disastrous fighting between states and people of the continent. Sometime in the last 10 years many people and the media in the "core" countries got all smug and uppity towards those lazy "peripherals" and so on forgetting exactly why the project was started, overnight we stopped being "Europeans" and became "und…

In France, the rift opened in 2005 with the rejection of the Constitution by the people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_r...

It looks like the Treaty of Versailles story. Very dark perspectives...

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#13

Post by nailer »

tosseraccount wrote: post #8
dmckeon wrote: post #2

Here is a fairly detailed rundown of the situation: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/05/7...

The uncollected tax receipts graphic is shocking: 89%. No wonder they can't afford their spending.

Greece needs to get their house in order: the stats on tax avoidance are huge. There was a greek restauranteur on the BBC earlier complaining that due to the ATM shutdown he couldn't pay his suppliers, even though he had the money, since they preferred cash. In the UK you wouldn't dare say that about your business on TV.

However that's a generational change: Greece can't and won't be fast enough to do this and will never be able to meet it's creditors. Greece shouldn't have been admitted into the Euro in the early 2000s, this is now the result of that unwise decision.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#14

Post by chx »

I have been collecting links for days now, here are a few. The picture is really not pretty and while you can place some blame on the Greeks, for the last five years at least it would seem they are not the one to blame.

if you want a very simplified slightly hilarious explanation, https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/3bhwij/what_i... this will do.

https://twitter.com/cstross/status/617775611642257408 http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/anil.kashyap/research/papers... http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/26112-an-economic-hit-man... http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/5965.html https://twitter.com/AP/status/616622654234169344 http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/who-will-dare-say-out-loud... http://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2015/03/13/contrar... http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/30/greek-debt-t... https://fsaraceno.wordpress.com/2015/06/27/its-the-politics-...

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#15

Post by quonn »

jdimov9 wrote: post #7
yc1010 wrote: post #3

Fairplay to them, the whole point of the EU project was to make us all "Europeans" and to prevent constant disastrous fighting between states and people of the continent. Sometime in the last 10 years many people and the media in the "core" countries got all smug and uppity towards those lazy "peripherals" and so on forgetting exactly why the project was started, overnight we stopped being "Europeans" and became "und…

This might have been the cover story, but is VERY far from the actual reason the "EU project" exists. As with all similar noble initiatives, the EU has much less to do with fairness and much more with power concentration (as is becoming exceedingly obvious).

That may be so, but the EU was still created by individuals. I'm sure many of the officials believed the story. I'm also still confident that the European citizens can have the EU as it should be, not as it currently is, if they can get over their short-sighted selfishness.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#16

Post by yishanl »

hal9000xp wrote: post #9

Here is Bloomberg animation for european debt crisis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8xAXJx9WJ8 I kept this in my bookmarks more than a year. Euro is failed project by its core because monetary policy without fiscal polity doesn't work.

Really helpful, thanks!

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#17

Post by tomp »

imaginenore wrote: post #5

I really hope EU doesn't propose any more bailouts / help to them until they sober up and go through the withdrawal and all the grief stages.

Greece doesn't actually need any more bailouts (at least, it didn't until last week). They run a primary budget surplus, so all they need from the EU & IMF is some kind of debt restructuring so they can stop all debt payments for a few years while they pass the necessary reforms and their economy recovers. They also need a guarantee that the banks are safe by the ECB to restore confidence, but that doesn't cost any money.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#18

Post by arrrg »

yc1010 wrote: post #3

Fairplay to them, the whole point of the EU project was to make us all "Europeans" and to prevent constant disastrous fighting between states and people of the continent. Sometime in the last 10 years many people and the media in the "core" countries got all smug and uppity towards those lazy "peripherals" and so on forgetting exactly why the project was started, overnight we stopped being "Europeans" and became "und…

The point was rather to give the fighting appropriate and effective political venues for resolving conflicts and finding effective solutions. There will never be no fighting because that is not possible or at least quite unhealthy. After all, isn’t the point of politics to solve conflicts – which are quite normal and will always be everywhere – in a non-violent way? (Tools for solving conflicts between nations in a non-violent way have always been quite limited – with obvious disastrous consequences, especially as we got better at killing each other.)

However, I do agree that it is sad that fighting is happening along national lines and that ugly stereotypes and propaganda play the role they do.

Just recently I was watching serious and respectable German TV and some expert was – probably unintentionally, but hey that’s stereotypes and toxic thinking for you, it worms itself into your heads – talking about Greeks “hiding” money at home after withdrawing it that would be inaccessible and as such money the creditors would have to pay. This toxic way of framing the conversation is just so sad. Greek people who withdraw their very own money from banks because they are unable to trust those banks are not hiding anything or doing anything immoral or unethical or even slightly impolite. They are the victims in that situation – and we have to be very careful how we talk about people, especially if we generally talk about “Greeks” or “Germans” or whatever.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#19

Post by bradleyjg »

yc1010 wrote: post #3

Fairplay to them, the whole point of the EU project was to make us all "Europeans" and to prevent constant disastrous fighting between states and people of the continent. Sometime in the last 10 years many people and the media in the "core" countries got all smug and uppity towards those lazy "peripherals" and so on forgetting exactly why the project was started, overnight we stopped being "Europeans" and became "und…

That level of generality is too high. The whole point was to prevent Germany and France from going to war again as they had twice in the twentieth century and twice in the nineteenth century.

Promiscuous expansion made ever closer integration harder and less likely and thus actually hurt the purposes for which the union was originally created.

It's like when people complain about the Security Counsel and its permanent members. They are missing the point of the UN. It isn't supposed to be a fair body for global quasi-governance. It is supposed to prevent World War III.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#20

Post by spiralpolitik »

brianmcconnell wrote: post #6

The Greeks were getting a shitty deal, and knew they were getting a shitty deal. Good for them for decisively telling the Germans to get stuffed (who conveniently forget about their WWII related debts being forgiven). Iceland demonstrated that it's possible to say no to perpetual debt peonage and go on to do well. If Greece has to leave the Euro, so be it. The Euro made sense as the Deutschfranc, but that's about it.

By leaving the Euro Greece will have the opportunity to put their country back together without 20 years of crippling austerity. They still need to fix their broken tax system and keep spending with their means but they have a much better chance of doing this on their own terms rather than under the cosh of the Troika.

If only other countries could be so brave.

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