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My first job burnout

niki.zone

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Re: My first job burnout

#11

Post by dalke »

wobbleblob wrote: post #8

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but a burnout is something you better not blog about or write about on facebook or speak about in any way that can be traced back to your real name, if you ever want to find another job again. Potential employers will google the names of applicants before an interview, and if the first thing that comes up is your name and photo on a story about your first job burnout, you're goi…

No, no, a thousand times no.

Not talking about things like this, keeping it secret, or (as you just did) encouraging a social prohibition on hiding this information is what leads to a burnout culture.

It's the same social taboo that prevents people from talking about their suicidal tendencies, even if talking about it can lead to help.

And in a weaker sense, it's similar to the taboo in many private companies in the US to keep one's salary information private, even though that taboo mostly ends up putting more power into the hands of the employer. (Discussed here recently at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9580871 )

People get burned out because they are overworked. Employers either overwork employees deliberately - in which case not talking about burnout means there's no coordinated response to resist employer pressure - or don't realize that someone is being overworked - in which case it's best to encourage people to be able to identify what burnout feels like or looks like.

Re: My first job burnout

#12

Post by wobbleblob »

DanBC wrote: post #10
wobbleblob wrote: post #8

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but a burnout is something you better not blog about or write about on facebook or speak about in any way that can be traced back to your real name, if you ever want to find another job again. Potential employers will google the names of applicants before an interview, and if the first thing that comes up is your name and photo on a story about your first job burnout, you're goi…

Lying on your CV is probably fraud and is almost always a very bad idea. Lying about mental health only contributes to the stigma and discrimination that some people experience. It also removes some of the legal protections you have[1]. It's probably better to be honest - "I had time off for a common illness. I got treatment and I now have some advanced techniques and some protective measures, although noone expects…

You're right, lying is a bad idea, but phrasing something bad in a way that sounds a little better is sometimes necessary, especially with something that you know is behind you and won't affect your future work. It's not fair, and it doesn't help with the work stress, but employers do disqualify a candidate for this.

Re: My first job burnout

#13

Post by wobbleblob »

dalke wrote: post #11
wobbleblob wrote: post #8

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but a burnout is something you better not blog about or write about on facebook or speak about in any way that can be traced back to your real name, if you ever want to find another job again. Potential employers will google the names of applicants before an interview, and if the first thing that comes up is your name and photo on a story about your first job burnout, you're goi…

No, no, a thousand times no. Not talking about things like this, keeping it secret, or (as you just did) encouraging a social prohibition on hiding this information is what leads to a burnout culture. It's the same social taboo that prevents people from talking about their suicidal tendencies, even if talking about it can lead to help. And in a weaker sense, it's similar to the taboo in many private companies in the…

People get burned out because something in their life is causing them too much stress for too long a period. It might be the employer's fault, or it might be the combination of a perfectly fine 9 to 5 job with a bad social situation at home or a health problem.

I'm not advocating trying to ignore it, but putting it out on the internet in a way that it's the first thing a potential employer will see when they google your name will definitely not make things easier or better.

Re: My first job burnout

#14

Post by makeitsuckless »

wobbleblob wrote: post #8

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but a burnout is something you better not blog about or write about on facebook or speak about in any way that can be traced back to your real name, if you ever want to find another job again. Potential employers will google the names of applicants before an interview, and if the first thing that comes up is your name and photo on a story about your first job burnout, you're goi…

It's generally good advice to think twice before publishing anything under your real name that may affect your life and career.

However, just like most people that have suffered burn-out conclude that they should have gotten out much sooner, it's also wise to avoid any employer for which this is an issue.

Because that can mean only one of two things:

1) The employer in question is clueless about burn-out, which means they are clueless about many health issues affecting workers, which means their HR sucks, which in turn means they are the kind of employer that's likely to create detrimental working conditions leading to burn-out.

2) The employer in question is very well aware that they have an unhealthy work environment and, wrongly, believes they'll increase their odds if they sign someone who hasn't had a burn-out before.

If you've already been through a burn-out once, you know that unless your financial situation is really desperate (rare if you live in the kind of Western European country you refer to), you're better off being unemployed than working for such an employer.

Any mature, responsible employer knows that burn-out tends the to hit the hardest working, most engaged employees, and that the biggest risk factor of prolonged absence caused by burn-out is not recognizing the signs early. Anybody who's already been through that is actually a lower risk.

Re: My first job burnout

#15

Post by wobbleblob »

makeitsuckless wrote: post #14
wobbleblob wrote: post #8

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but a burnout is something you better not blog about or write about on facebook or speak about in any way that can be traced back to your real name, if you ever want to find another job again. Potential employers will google the names of applicants before an interview, and if the first thing that comes up is your name and photo on a story about your first job burnout, you're goi…

It's generally good advice to think twice before publishing anything under your real name that may affect your life and career. However, just like most people that have suffered burn-out conclude that they should have gotten out much sooner, it's also wise to avoid any employer for which this is an issue. Because that can mean only one of two things: 1) The employer in question is clueless about burn-out, which means…

Everywhere I've worked in this country, employers have done their best to keep the work environment as stress free as possible (because of the serious financial consequences I described), yet people still get burnout. Your body doesn't separate work-stress from private stress, and not all stress can be blamed on your employer. A perfectly fine 9 - 5 job can push you over your stress limits if it is combined with a bad social situation, such as caring for a sick relative.

Re: My first job burnout

#16

Post by Joe8Bit »

wobbleblob wrote: post #8

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but a burnout is something you better not blog about or write about on facebook or speak about in any way that can be traced back to your real name, if you ever want to find another job again. Potential employers will google the names of applicants before an interview, and if the first thing that comes up is your name and photo on a story about your first job burnout, you're goi…

I couldn't disagree more.

I would fit into the 'potential employers' part of your comment, having hired In fact, I would prefer a candidate who knows their limits and is obviously willing to communicate them. I would view a person who would publicly talk about a subject that few others in their position do as someone I would want on my team, as I would view them as more likely to not only push when their workload/lifestyle is becoming unhealthy but would actively help in recognising it in others who maybe wouldn't talk it so readily.

Frankly any organisation that would view something like this as negative is one I would council no one to want to work with.

Re: My first job burnout

#17

Post by fsloth »

wobbleblob wrote: post #8

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but a burnout is something you better not blog about or write about on facebook or speak about in any way that can be traced back to your real name, if you ever want to find another job again. Potential employers will google the names of applicants before an interview, and if the first thing that comes up is your name and photo on a story about your first job burnout, you're goi…

I disagree. Burnout should be talked about, so that people learn it's a real problem and it stops being a taboo. Third world countries have public health problems specifically because there are these "taboo conditions" that are not talked about.

Sure, public exposure might discourage a few employers but realistically - it's a pretty big world out there and imagining a single internet tarnish will ruin ones future is really exaggerating.

Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten

I can speak from observing events at a close distance -- - even high-tech employers can be really clueless about the effects of burnout and it's cousin clinical depression. And it's too bad because the cause is often bad management and poor project management, which are areas that are, if not easy, then at least feasible to improve on given the large supply of educational material and consultancies available to help in these matters.

Re: My first job burnout

#18

Post by arsenide »

wobbleblob wrote: post #8

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but a burnout is something you better not blog about or write about on facebook or speak about in any way that can be traced back to your real name, if you ever want to find another job again. Potential employers will google the names of applicants before an interview, and if the first thing that comes up is your name and photo on a story about your first job burnout, you're goi…

If you were interviewing for such a position and came across this candidate, would they have a "very difficult interview?" How would you treat them differently, and why is that okay?

Re: My first job burnout

#19

Post by toolz »

wobbleblob wrote: post #13
dalke wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, no, a thousand times no. Not talking about things like this, keeping it secret, or (as you just did) encouraging a social prohibition on hiding this information is what leads to a burnout culture. It's the same social taboo that prevents people from talking about their suicidal tendencies, even if talking about it can lead to help. And in a weaker sense, it's similar to the taboo in many private companies in the…

People get burned out because something in their life is causing them too much stress for too long a period. It might be the employer's fault, or it might be the combination of a perfectly fine 9 to 5 job with a bad social situation at home or a health problem. I'm not advocating trying to ignore it, but putting it out on the internet in a way that it's the first thing a potential employer will see when they google y…

We're all in this together, so you can either keep up this act of lying to employers and handing out resumes that put you one position below superman, or if you're quite capable and credentialed as many of us are, we can set a precedent. Walk out of obnoxious interviews - stop pretending to be the best developer ever on your resume - answer questions about shortcomings without apprehension (because we're all human and there should be nothing to hide).

Will you make less money? Probably, but you'll make the job field easier for everyone else and at some tipping point maybe jr. level employees won't have to pretend they have 5 years of experience for a jr. level position in the future and those people won't make less money just because they refuse to pretend to be superhuman during the interview process.

Re: My first job burnout

#20

Post by dalke »

wobbleblob wrote: post #13
dalke wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, no, a thousand times no. Not talking about things like this, keeping it secret, or (as you just did) encouraging a social prohibition on hiding this information is what leads to a burnout culture. It's the same social taboo that prevents people from talking about their suicidal tendencies, even if talking about it can lead to help. And in a weaker sense, it's similar to the taboo in many private companies in the…

People get burned out because something in their life is causing them too much stress for too long a period. It might be the employer's fault, or it might be the combination of a perfectly fine 9 to 5 job with a bad social situation at home or a health problem. I'm not advocating trying to ignore it, but putting it out on the internet in a way that it's the first thing a potential employer will see when they google y…

Your first paragraph now is aligned with my own statement, which is either that it's deliberate or accidental overwork. My conclusion was that people need to be able to recognize that there's a problem (either in themselves, co-workers, or employees) and be able to talk about it.

Your point is that people should keep this sort of issue hush-hush. It is in that where we disagree.

While it may be best for someone, depending on the circumstances, to not talk about such issues in public, your view seems to be that no one should ever do so. Otherwise you would have said "you need to be careful if you blog or write" rather than "you better not blog about or write".

This sort of caution happens often. I gave an example of public salary information, but I could have talked about unionization. The first person to propose unionization often has negative job consequences, despite the laws against employer retaliation. The people who want to change the statue quo often receive advice like "keep your head down", "don't rock the boat", and "know which battles to fight." But the only way to change, and hopefully be in a better situation, is to start doing it.

Your advice is to continue with the status quo, and you use language of social mores to make that advice. I strongly disagree.

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