Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Vietnam 40 years on: how a communist victory gave way to capitalist corruption

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 25 posts

Re: Vietnam 40 years on: how a communist victory gave way to capitalist corruption

#11

Post by mercurial »

dataker wrote: post #9

Articles like these are well-intentioned, but it's part of a quite ignorant and manipulative trend. It makes one believe Capitalism means Coca-Cola, Microsoft and other corporations taking over the world, corrupting local governments and destroying local businesses. At its best, this is a form of 'Crony Capitalism', but far from what Capitalism genuinely is.

Crony capitalism? How many "genuinely capitalistic" corporations show moral qualms when it comes to exploiting (or even engineering) weak regulatory frameworks in under-developed areas and engaging in the time-honored tradition of buying local officials?

Re: Vietnam 40 years on: how a communist victory gave way to capitalist corruption

#12

Post by mercurial »

reallyoldguy wrote: post #6
mercurial wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It is well-written and engaging, but its focus on American atrocities somewhat detracts from the main point (and conveniently forgets to mention that Vietcong forces were no stranger to mass executions and torture themselves). It does bring home the extent of the destruction the war inflicted, though. Unfortunate to see Vietnam turning into a new China.

Agreed, the piece has a very distinct bias, and it's sad to see what Vietnam has become, especially considering what it could have been had history gone a little differently (South Korea is a reasonably analogous case).

It is? When was South Korea under commercial embargo? I agree that the piece is extremely biased, but it's pretty clear that the US were about as keen on helping post-war Vietnam developing its economy as they have been with Cuba.

Re: Vietnam 40 years on: how a communist victory gave way to capitalist corruption

#13

Post by dataker »

mercurial wrote: post #11
dataker wrote: post #9

Articles like these are well-intentioned, but it's part of a quite ignorant and manipulative trend. It makes one believe Capitalism means Coca-Cola, Microsoft and other corporations taking over the world, corrupting local governments and destroying local businesses. At its best, this is a form of 'Crony Capitalism', but far from what Capitalism genuinely is.

Crony capitalism? How many "genuinely capitalistic" corporations show moral qualms when it comes to exploiting (or even engineering) weak regulatory frameworks in under-developed areas and engaging in the time-honored tradition of buying local officials?

I'm not sure there'd have many corporations and, if so, buying local officials would be useless, as they'd have limited power in the first place.

Re: Vietnam 40 years on: how a communist victory gave way to capitalist corruption

#14

Post by chinhodado »

mercurial wrote: post #12
reallyoldguy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, the piece has a very distinct bias, and it's sad to see what Vietnam has become, especially considering what it could have been had history gone a little differently (South Korea is a reasonably analogous case).

It is? When was South Korea under commercial embargo? I agree that the piece is extremely biased, but it's pretty clear that the US were about as keen on helping post-war Vietnam developing its economy as they have been with Cuba.

I think what he meant was, had South Vietnam won, it would have become a second South Korea.

Re: Vietnam 40 years on: how a communist victory gave way to capitalist corruption

#15

Post by abalone »

ghayes wrote: post #3

This article seems to have a strong objective and anti-Western bias. For instance, why does an article about "Vietnam 40 years on" spend the first third discussing American tragedies during the U.S. invasion? It then discusses each problem in Vietnam in terms of Western actions and dedicates little if any space to the full spectrum of the issues the article is discussing. That said, the facts and stories presented in…

Perhaps you see it that way because you have a strong pro-Western bias and have placed the fulcrum of "objectivity" thusly. For instance you use the word "tragedies" to refer to systematic civilian slaughter by U.S. and allied forces (the article notes the U.S. secretly confirmed over 300 cases). This reveals your bias. Compare this with someone referring to Pol Pot's actions as "communist tragedies".

The history of the war is plainly relevant to Vietnam's economy today. At the very least it is crucial to supporting the article's thesis that capitalism is providing an incentive and engine for the suppression of this historical memory.

Re: Vietnam 40 years on: how a communist victory gave way to capitalist corruption

#16

Post by chinhodado »

reallyoldguy wrote: post #5

This is an un-nuanced analysis of Vietnam's history that basically blames the United States for Vietnam's rampant corruption and the failure of the communist model (can you name a country where this has worked?). The author uses stories of war crimes and American military destruction to paint the Vietnam War as USA (with the help of a puppet government) vs. the people of Vietnam. This narrative is naive and ignores t…

> In the 300-day grace period after the 1954 division that allowed open migration between the two Vietnams, 600,000 people migrated south compared with around 150,000 to the north

There is a reason for that huge number of people migrating south:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Passage_to_Freedom#Pr...

Re: Vietnam 40 years on: how a communist victory gave way to capitalist corruption

#17

Post by jbjohns »

chinhodado wrote: post #14
mercurial wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is? When was South Korea under commercial embargo? I agree that the piece is extremely biased, but it's pretty clear that the US were about as keen on helping post-war Vietnam developing its economy as they have been with Cuba.

I think what he meant was, had South Vietnam won, it would have become a second South Korea.

What are you talking about? There was no "South Vietnam"... There was Vietnam and there were places the invading forces were occupying.

Re: Vietnam 40 years on: how a communist victory gave way to capitalist corruption

#18

Post by DanBC »

jbjohns wrote: post #17
chinhodado wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what he meant was, had South Vietnam won, it would have become a second South Korea.

What are you talking about? There was no "South Vietnam"... There was Vietnam and there were places the invading forces were occupying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnam

First google hit.

Re: Vietnam 40 years on: how a communist victory gave way to capitalist corruption

#20

Post by VLM »

DanBC wrote: post #18
jbjohns wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? There was no "South Vietnam"... There was Vietnam and there were places the invading forces were occupying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnam First google hit.

It existed in the sense that the Confederate States of America existed. A bunch of politicians unhappy about the countries government went into rebellion, coincidentally in the south, and then the fireworks began. But as a cultural concept, neither the CSA nor South Vietnam existed before their respective political rebellions aka they weren't "real countries". And after the rebellion was crushed they don't exist anymore in any real cultural/political fashion. If they won, they would have developed into real distinct countries eventually, but they never got the chance.

As far as invaders go, both sides invited so many vistors and advisors its hard to say who that is.

Post reply on HN