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Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

economist.com

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Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#11

Post by TheBeardKing »

shmageggy wrote: post #4

Really? The author is advocating extending universal testing to higher education? Because that's working so well in secondary schools... /s Common core is a failure. The idea of extending that model to cover an even broader, more diverse set of subjects and topics is really poorly thought out. Who's going to design these tests? What professor is going to give a shit about them when their evaulations are based solely…

Right, it's like no child left behind for college kids. So small, private, and usually online colleges are taking advantage of poor people with access to subsidized tuition. I agree that's a problem, but creating a broad-spectrum standardized testing scheme is a completely wrong way to go about it. I don't know what the answer is, but some effort must be made to crack down on the for-profit diploma mills.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#12

Post by dreamdu5t »

ht_th wrote: post #5

Growing up in the late 20th century, I cannot imagine not having gone to university. Without it, I'd still live in a small village and probably doing some menial work in a factory or on a farm. I would not have had the experience of focussing on a subject for five years straight. I would not have had the experience of being able to reflect on society and my role in it. I would not have had the experience of discoveri…

I never went to HS or college. It's pretty easy to learn if you're motivated and have an internet connection. I have a high-paying career that I made for myself. Of course, whenever I bring this up people write me off as some kind of genius (I'm not) or some kind of exception. I'm really not. Yes, statistics show that going to college is correlated with more financial success than those who do not attend college. I suspect that has more to do with the demographics associated with those who attend college rather than what was learned in college.

Regardless, my problem with college is they take zero responsibility for their student's success while simultaneously employing rhetoric and advertising that tells kids that it will help them get a job. This is borderline fraud. Colleges should not be able to sell kids degrees on the idea that they will get a job with them whilst not actually accomplishing that.

What do I mean by taking responsibility for success? There are trade schools where if you don't get a job within X years you only owe a fraction of the tuition (or none at all).

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#13

Post by Spearchucker »

ht_th wrote: post #5

Growing up in the late 20th century, I cannot imagine not having gone to university. Without it, I'd still live in a small village and probably doing some menial work in a factory or on a farm. I would not have had the experience of focussing on a subject for five years straight. I would not have had the experience of being able to reflect on society and my role in it. I would not have had the experience of discoveri…

I grew up in an African village of 200, miles from anywhere and anything. I finished school but didn't go to university. Armed with that and my interest in computers I've managed to land jobs at both Microsoft and Nokia.

As ever, every example has a counter-example. I don't know which approach is right, but crazy grateful I didn't go through the American system. The cost strikes me as crippling.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#14

Post by Donzo »

shmageggy wrote: post #4

Really? The author is advocating extending universal testing to higher education? Because that's working so well in secondary schools... /s Common core is a failure. The idea of extending that model to cover an even broader, more diverse set of subjects and topics is really poorly thought out. Who's going to design these tests? What professor is going to give a shit about them when their evaulations are based solely…

While I agree with your general sentiments,

I find that most people who bash the Common Core State Standards don't really understand them.

Why, exactly, do you feel that Common Core is a failure?

Education is one of the few areas that the state has clear, Constitutionally defined authority to manage over the federal government.

Yet, 46 out of 50 states have accepted the Common Core, which seems to me to be a tremendous success.

In my examination of the Common Core State Standards, I have found them to be thoughtfully designed, and a tremendous improvement over the fragmented and rambling state standards of old, at least in Illinois.

I find that most people who bash CCSS think that it's a method of teaching, rather than what it truly is: broad learning standards that give educators some general goal in which they can use any method to achieve.

Now, if I move my family to California, New York, or Wisconsin, these students should be working on roughly the same concepts.

This to me seems like a good thing.

Of course, there must be a reason why you think that they are a failure, and I am certainly willing to hear you out.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#16

Post by guyzero »

Spearchucker wrote: post #13
ht_th wrote: post #5

Growing up in the late 20th century, I cannot imagine not having gone to university. Without it, I'd still live in a small village and probably doing some menial work in a factory or on a farm. I would not have had the experience of focussing on a subject for five years straight. I would not have had the experience of being able to reflect on society and my role in it. I would not have had the experience of discoveri…

I grew up in an African village of 200, miles from anywhere and anything. I finished school but didn't go to university. Armed with that and my interest in computers I've managed to land jobs at both Microsoft and Nokia. As ever, every example has a counter-example. I don't know which approach is right, but crazy grateful I didn't go through the American system. The cost strikes me as crippling.

In most other Western countries the universities are pretty much the same as American ones, just without the crippling costs. U of T charges $10K USD annually for tuition, for an undergrad science degree, for a Canadian. McGill charges Quebec residents a stunning $2,000 a year for a science degree. There is no significant difference between U of T or McGill and any American university you care to name.

Student costs are similar in France and Germany, if not a lot lower.

It's simply a question of the US government spending money on things other than educating its citizens.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#17

Post by ma2rten »

guyzero wrote: post #16
Spearchucker wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in an African village of 200, miles from anywhere and anything. I finished school but didn't go to university. Armed with that and my interest in computers I've managed to land jobs at both Microsoft and Nokia. As ever, every example has a counter-example. I don't know which approach is right, but crazy grateful I didn't go through the American system. The cost strikes me as crippling.

In most other Western countries the universities are pretty much the same as American ones, just without the crippling costs. U of T charges $10K USD annually for tuition, for an undergrad science degree, for a Canadian. McGill charges Quebec residents a stunning $2,000 a year for a science degree. There is no significant difference between U of T or McGill and any American university you care to name. Student costs…

Similar? I don't know about France, but in Germany it's free, in Holland you even get money from the government to study.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#19

Post by Retric »

ma2rten wrote: post #17
guyzero wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most other Western countries the universities are pretty much the same as American ones, just without the crippling costs. U of T charges $10K USD annually for tuition, for an undergrad science degree, for a Canadian. McGill charges Quebec residents a stunning $2,000 a year for a science degree. There is no significant difference between U of T or McGill and any American university you care to name. Student costs…

Similar? I don't know about France, but in Germany it's free, in Holland you even get money from the government to study.

My old University in the US charges in state students 7,000$ per year for tuition 2014-2015 it's 10,200/year out of state.

Plenty of people come up with most or all of that as working students. And one of my roommates came from Europe because it was cheaper than any school in his country though this was a while ago.

My little sister got into a school that charges (ED: 43.2k tuition/year 2015-2016) which she wanted to go to. But, decided to go somewhere else for obvious reason. Some collages in the US charge a lot because they can find students willing to pay that much money, but there plenty of reasonable options.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#20

Post by crazy1van »

Donzo wrote: post #14
shmageggy wrote: post #4

Really? The author is advocating extending universal testing to higher education? Because that's working so well in secondary schools... /s Common core is a failure. The idea of extending that model to cover an even broader, more diverse set of subjects and topics is really poorly thought out. Who's going to design these tests? What professor is going to give a shit about them when their evaulations are based solely…

While I agree with your general sentiments, I find that most people who bash the Common Core State Standards don't really understand them. Why, exactly, do you feel that Common Core is a failure? Education is one of the few areas that the state has clear, Constitutionally defined authority to manage over the federal government. Yet, 46 out of 50 states have accepted the Common Core, which seems to me to be a tremendo…

> Yet, 46 out of 50 states have accepted the Common Core, which seems to me to be a tremendous success.

I believe receiving Race to the Top money was tied to adopting Common Core, which contributed to the adoption rate. I think a state could in theory have adopted a different standard but Common Core granted them the most money and was the most easily accessible.

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