How ironic that FreedomWorks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreedomWorks) is the source for this reporting.
House Introduces Bill to Repeal the Patriot Act
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Re: House Introduces Bill to Repeal the Patriot Act
#12How ironic that FreedomWorks ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreedomWorks ) is the source for this reporting.
What's the irony?
Here's their motto from the Wiki link of yours:
"Lower Taxes. Less Government. More Freedom."
Ending the Patriot Act would accomplish two of those.
They're apparently in part a libertarian leaning group; libertarians are usually against the Patriot Act.
Re: House Introduces Bill to Repeal the Patriot Act
#13Careful what you wish for. Instead of one big target bill with a set of laws allowing unconstitutional activity by the government, they will replace it with a ton of tiny laws buried in other bills that are impossible to target as a group.
Actually now that I think about it, Congress barely passes any bills anyway anymore so that would be tricky for them, but since many of them are there for decades, they have plenty of time.
Term limits really would make sense.
Re: House Introduces Bill to Repeal the Patriot Act
#14I really want to believe this could become reality. But the past surrounding this issue, as well as seemingly widespread apathy about our loss of civil liberties, leaves me cynical. Nearly every time I fly, I hear someone in the security line (which to me resembles a cattle chute) remarking that they're in fact glad for the inconvenience, as they somehow feel safer. Nearly every family member or friend with whom I di…
Nearly every family member or friend with whom I discuss Edward Snowden's revelations and the vast injustice of what the NSA is doing couldn't care less. It's possible they don't believe the Snowden revelations represent a loss of civil liberties. I actually find this to be a pretty rational belief: There's much talk about NSA data harvesting efforts as a "machinery of totalitarianism", but precious little (any?) evi…
It's weird public discourse has gone from "Na, the NSA couldn't possibly be that widespread and invasive" to "Na, they're not doing anything bad with it..." It's like some collective denial of what the next step could be, apparently we have a lot more faith in government than a lot of people let on...
Re: House Introduces Bill to Repeal the Patriot Act
#15I really want to believe this could become reality. But the past surrounding this issue, as well as seemingly widespread apathy about our loss of civil liberties, leaves me cynical. Nearly every time I fly, I hear someone in the security line (which to me resembles a cattle chute) remarking that they're in fact glad for the inconvenience, as they somehow feel safer. Nearly every family member or friend with whom I di…
Nearly every family member or friend with whom I discuss Edward Snowden's revelations and the vast injustice of what the NSA is doing couldn't care less. It's possible they don't believe the Snowden revelations represent a loss of civil liberties. I actually find this to be a pretty rational belief: There's much talk about NSA data harvesting efforts as a "machinery of totalitarianism", but precious little (any?) evi…
I think that most people don't fully appreciate the complex relationship between the government and the governed. What we've had in the past and are missing now is oversight. This comes in multiple forms: congressional oversight, regulatory oversight, judicial oversight, etc. Ultimately, if those methods failed, we always had the media to provide oversight - which is why until the last 20 years or so, freedom of the press was considered sacred.
Real harm is happening today; it's just hard to prove. The entire reason there is no evidence that the NSA machine has been used for nefarious purposes is because they've designed the programs to avoid congressional oversight. The NSA/CIA deliberately and consistently lied to congress and the judiciary about the scope and legality of its programs. When the media stepped in because other oversight had failed, they were treated as traitors and threatened with jail.
The reason for all this oversight is because totalitarianism is what creeps in when you have no oversight: in the absence of a watchdog, government will naturally work to make the task of governance more efficient. The most efficient method of government is totalitarianism, so their efforts will converge to this. This is absolutely the slippery slope argument: once oversight is removed, the government can do whatever it wants and threaten anyone who disagrees with treason.
Re: House Introduces Bill to Repeal the Patriot Act
#16Can someone who is informed on this shed some light on its shortcomings? I know this is new, but the article on the bill is a bit too supportive that it feels highly biased. I can't help but feel that the line about collection on foreign enemies for WMD's is some sort of loophole. I agree with bkurtz--its surprising how few people care about Snowden's revelations.
>the line about collection on foreign enemies for WMD's is some sort of loophole
The view that the NSA should do no spying at all is a minority absurdist viewpoint that is easily discarded.
Re: House Introduces Bill to Repeal the Patriot Act
#17Careful what you wish for. Instead of one big target bill with a set of laws allowing unconstitutional activity by the government, they will replace it with a ton of tiny laws buried in other bills that are impossible to target as a group. Actually now that I think about it, Congress barely passes any bills anyway anymore so that would be tricky for them, but since many of them are there for decades, they have plenty…
> Term limits really would make sense.
Three terms in the House, two in the Senate. Eighteen years is more than enough time for anyone to hold that much power.
A nice side effect would be more people working hard at the state level rather than seeing the state legislature as just a stepping stone to national office.
Re: House Introduces Bill to Repeal the Patriot Act
#18yeah. nice try. won't happen.
the entirety of domestic and foreign politics of the national security state, that is the United States today, is based on the policies introduced or made possible by this very act. you, the people, and your electorate won't just undo 15 years of tyranny without spilling blood.
hard words, i know. but that's how i, as a foreigner, see it, see your country. you won't take anything back by making a check on a piece of paper or signing online petitions. that's gone, now.
Re: House Introduces Bill to Repeal the Patriot Act
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nearly every family member or friend with whom I discuss Edward Snowden's revelations and the vast injustice of what the NSA is doing couldn't care less. It's possible they don't believe the Snowden revelations represent a loss of civil liberties. I actually find this to be a pretty rational belief: There's much talk about NSA data harvesting efforts as a "machinery of totalitarianism", but precious little (any?) evi…
It's weird public discourse has gone from "Na, the NSA couldn't possibly be that widespread and invasive" to "Na, they're not doing anything bad with it..." It's like some collective denial of what the next step could be, apparently we have a lot more faith in government than a lot of people let on...
I don't remember that Pollyanna public discourse. What would you consider the most shocking Snowden disclosure? None that I'm aware of were that surprising. It was an open secret at the phone companies that TLA folk of one sort or another have been (only sometimes with direct cooperation) plugging mysterious gear into the network for decades. Really astounding that their methods are now targeted at Gmail and Facebook?
Re: House Introduces Bill to Repeal the Patriot Act
#20Can someone who is informed on this shed some light on its shortcomings? I know this is new, but the article on the bill is a bit too supportive that it feels highly biased. I can't help but feel that the line about collection on foreign enemies for WMD's is some sort of loophole. I agree with bkurtz--its surprising how few people care about Snowden's revelations.
>the line about collection on foreign enemies for WMD's is some sort of loophole The view that the NSA should do no spying at all is a minority absurdist viewpoint that is easily discarded.
No it isn't. The NSA doesn't have to exist at all. It didn't used to. Its questionable that they do anything positive. The discussion is very much worthwhile.