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UK startup accelerators take matched service charges on top of invested capital?

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Re: UK startup accelerators take matched service charges on top of invested capital?

#11
post #5
post #2

Congratulations. Today you figured out that startup accelerators, incubators, hubs, conferences and hackathons are just businesses trying to make money out of your enthusiasm and efforts. They don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts. They do it to turn a profit. To answer your question, some of them take equity and others take cash. Either way, you're getting screwed. Unless, of course, you just keep finding…

I started 2 companies through YC and Techstars and strongly disagree with this. Both were incredibly valuable and well worth the equity for us. Edit: I didn't mean to say that all accelerators are worth it, but I disagree with the sweeping generalization that all accelerators are screwing their companies.

Don't do that. It's spreading the myth that these lower-tier accelerators are trying to do things the same way as the top-tier accelerators.

That is extremely not the case, too often. Many times it's the equivalent of used car salesman / real estate broker type sales people - who are good at selling themselves to people with money and love to squeeze the most out of negotiations just for fun, with no clue or regard for the tech startups. Wish I was exaggerating.

Re: UK startup accelerators take matched service charges on top of invested capital?

#12
post #5
post #2

Congratulations. Today you figured out that startup accelerators, incubators, hubs, conferences and hackathons are just businesses trying to make money out of your enthusiasm and efforts. They don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts. They do it to turn a profit. To answer your question, some of them take equity and others take cash. Either way, you're getting screwed. Unless, of course, you just keep finding…

I started 2 companies through YC and Techstars and strongly disagree with this. Both were incredibly valuable and well worth the equity for us. Edit: I didn't mean to say that all accelerators are worth it, but I disagree with the sweeping generalization that all accelerators are screwing their companies.

could you talk about your experiences with each and how different or similar they are?

Re: UK startup accelerators take matched service charges on top of invested capital?

#13
post #3

500 Startups does this too. From their website: "We invest $100k in exchange for 7%, and charge a $25K program fee for a net $75K investment." Not quite sure why some accelerators do this.

My understanding is that it is largely an accounting optimization.

Their explanation: http://www.quora.com/What-is-500-Startups-business-model

Important to understand: they've got one brand but two entities, the investment fund and the accelerator. The accelerator is designed to take in $X per year in revenue and pay out $X in expenses, for a net profit of zero or slightly negative. (Having more than slightly negative is tax inefficient. You get to book the implicit tax value of the loss as a carryforward asset but you would have no way to ultimately realize it since the accelerator is designed in this model to never actually make significant amounts of money.)

"But isn't it equivalent if you just give them $75k." No, not equivalent. This manages to teleport revenue through time from the eventual carry into the present, pays for present cash expenses, and gives that revenue favorable tax treatment.

How exactly it's favorable tax treatment is a great question for a tax lawyer. Here's my layman's understanding: you can deduct expenses from capital gains prior to taxing them but they have to have a certain level of connection with the gains, and it is possible that "general administrative expenses of our operation" don't have that level of connection. Shuffling those expenses into the accelerator makes them clearly deductible against the accelerator's ordinary income, since the accelerator looks like any money-comes-in-money-goes-out IT business. The program fee is clearly revenue. Their rent is clearly an expense. If revenues equal expenses than their revenues are taxed at, effectively, 0%.

"Tax optimization on $25k doesn't make sense" would be a sensible objection until you remember that 500 Startups operates at industrial scale and that this is suddenly $3 million in revenue a year.

n.b. 500 Startups would, eventually, pay whatever the normal capital gains taxes are on the carry (and/or ordinary income tax if the law is ever changed to make it less favorable), in accordance with the standard treatment of investments under US tax law. It's not an avoidance strategy, it is a temporal optimization strategy.

Edit to add: Above explanation is purely "My best understanding of the matter as someone who had no hand in putting this together." based on my inexpert understanding of standard US principles of taxation and their public statements about it.

Re: UK startup accelerators take matched service charges on top of invested capital?

#14
I think this is really bad.

Specifically because of the way that it burns the SEIS allowance.

I would be tempted to call HMRC and explain what the accelerator are doing, that they are using the investment incentive as a service charge for themselves, and to ask them to clarify whether or not this is allowed and the degree to which it creates an issue for your company.

Re: UK startup accelerators take matched service charges on top of invested capital?

#16
You might want to let HMRC know about this.

https://www.gov.uk/report-an-unregistered-trader-or-business

That page is aimed much more at the "cash in hand" trader, but they'll take reports on anything.

You don't have to know that it's tax evasion to make a report.

Re: UK startup accelerators take matched service charges on top of invested capital?

#17
post #8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This particular one was £50k investment for 9% equity, plus they send an additional £50k to the company, which is transferred immediately as a "service charge". Writes off £50k of your SEIS allowance as a business, which as I'm sure you know is like gold dust for the first £150k, as 50% of the investment can be written off against investors income tax, then a further 30% if the company fails. If the company succeeds,…

To further add to this, it's not necessarily the fact that they take a service charge that I take issue with. It's the complete lack of transparency up-front and only once you're close to getting on the program that it's ever disclosed.

Founder of http://Accelerat.io here. This is exactly why we started our project, we hear a lot of these stories of second and third tier accelerators doing these kinds of shenanigans.

Would love to put up the accelerator you're talking about with clear information so future entrepreneurs applying can know about this upfront.

If you contact me at hello at accelerat.io I'll set it up for you. Rest assured, it will all be 100% anonymous.

Re: UK startup accelerators take matched service charges on top of invested capital?

#18
post #9
post #3

500 Startups does this too. From their website: "We invest $100k in exchange for 7%, and charge a $25K program fee for a net $75K investment." Not quite sure why some accelerators do this.

If you invest $100k in exchange for $25k services purchased, you now have $25k revenue. If your business is valued at a price/sales ratio of 20, your business is now worth $500k.

> If your business is valued at a price/sales ratio of 20

How is that multiple even close to right? Everyone I've ever talked to says 5-10 is more realistic, and the push-back you get grows exponentially as you approach 10.

Re: UK startup accelerators take matched service charges on top of invested capital?

#19
post #13
post #3

500 Startups does this too. From their website: "We invest $100k in exchange for 7%, and charge a $25K program fee for a net $75K investment." Not quite sure why some accelerators do this.

My understanding is that it is largely an accounting optimization. Their explanation: http://www.quora.com/What-is-500-Startups-business-model Important to understand: they've got one brand but two entities, the investment fund and the accelerator. The accelerator is designed to take in $X per year in revenue and pay out $X in expenses, for a net profit of zero or slightly negative. (Having more than slightly negativ…

There is an added item at play here: the equity stake and future pro-rate amounts are based on invested capital, so for $75k you can get 100k (or more) in pro-rata.

(The more comes from the fact that a lot of times this is convertible note with a discount, and the discount also provides a bump in pro-rata rights. See http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2014/10/12/the-authoritat...)

So this isnt just tax optimization, but investment/equity optimization as well. That said, smart founders should probably value their involvement in the accelerator as an valuation multiplier: if it isnt, they shouldnt join one.

Re: UK startup accelerators take matched service charges on top of invested capital?

#20
post #13
post #3

500 Startups does this too. From their website: "We invest $100k in exchange for 7%, and charge a $25K program fee for a net $75K investment." Not quite sure why some accelerators do this.

My understanding is that it is largely an accounting optimization. Their explanation: http://www.quora.com/What-is-500-Startups-business-model Important to understand: they've got one brand but two entities, the investment fund and the accelerator. The accelerator is designed to take in $X per year in revenue and pay out $X in expenses, for a net profit of zero or slightly negative. (Having more than slightly negativ…

The incubator could avoid profitability equally well by not charging startups at all. So capital structure and tax incentives are irrelevant in that sense, leaving the question of why startups are being charged more than 8000 USD EACH MONTH in fees and whether they are getting a good deal.

I personally consider it deceptive for any incubator to ask a participant to pay for things the incubator positions as free support (i.e. use of "our" office space). And it is perfectly valid to call out any business as predatory when its behavior seems purposefully structured to confuse customers about how much they are paying and what they get for it.

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