Coding Like a Girl • Hacker News Board

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#11

Post by ncallaway » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 4:31 PM UTC

mrits wrote: post #2

If you worked where I do (on Earth) you will be judged for your gender,age,race,education,social standing, where you grew up, hygiene, personality, religion, etc...

I absolutely don't understand this argument.

Person A says "X is happens and is bad". Person B responds "X happens, along with Y, Z, and W." What is the objective of the argument presented by person B?

It doesn't refute or disagree with Person A in any way. Is the point to minimize or trivialize X because Y, Z, and W also happen?

Does the presence of Y, Z, and W mean we shouldn't make progress on X?

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#12

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 4:32 PM UTC

spcoll wrote: post #9

thomasmarcelis wrote: post #5

One thing I don't agree with, how is the following feedback gender-specific?: “Why are your slides so pink? It’s very distracting.” “Stop pushing your hair behind your ear when you present. It’s very distracting.” “Your voice goes up after every sentence you say.” I feel like this is all valid feedback. Back in university we would also get feedback on our behaviour during our presentations or the look of our slides.

This feedback makes it clear that acting feminine is considered a weakness, instead of a strength. You shouldn't be ashamed to look beautiful, wear dresses and make-up, and present cute slides with a pink theme and occasional kitty picture. This is what the whole "like a girl" is about: if you express your femininity in the things you do and the way you look, people associate that with incompetence.

Exactly. If you were to make a stereotypically "masculine" presentation, you wouldn't get negative comments on it.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#13

Post by skj » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 4:32 PM UTC

sergiotapia wrote: post #3

mrits wrote: post #2

If you worked where I do (on Earth) you will be judged for your gender,age,race,education,social standing, where you grew up, hygiene, personality, religion, etc...

But let's all focus on one part of this multifaceted situation.

Not sure if you're serious or sarcastic, but the fact that many problems exist is not a reason to avoid focusing on one of them :) if it were, nothing would ever get solved!

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#14

Post by mgkimsal » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 4:33 PM UTC

skj wrote: post #8

thomasmarcelis wrote: post #5

One thing I don't agree with, how is the following feedback gender-specific?: “Why are your slides so pink? It’s very distracting.” “Stop pushing your hair behind your ear when you present. It’s very distracting.” “Your voice goes up after every sentence you say.” I feel like this is all valid feedback. Back in university we would also get feedback on our behaviour during our presentations or the look of our slides.

Especially with the vocal comment, many people get annoyed with female voices when they're in a supposedly serious context. But the thing is that it's not actually some fundamentally annoying or distracting quality of the voice- it's that it's different from what they expect: a male voice. "This American Life" had a great segment about this, targeting "vocal fry" in particular: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-a…

Voices going up - as in, asking a question(?) - is annoying whether it's a female voice or male voice.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#15

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 4:33 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #6

The dress story vs jeans, would apply equally to a guy in a suit and tie vs a hoodie.

Wait, are you saying the dress is too formal, or not formal enough?

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#16

Post by Mithaldu » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 4:33 PM UTC

skj wrote: post #8

thomasmarcelis wrote: post #5

One thing I don't agree with, how is the following feedback gender-specific?: “Why are your slides so pink? It’s very distracting.” “Stop pushing your hair behind your ear when you present. It’s very distracting.” “Your voice goes up after every sentence you say.” I feel like this is all valid feedback. Back in university we would also get feedback on our behaviour during our presentations or the look of our slides.

Especially with the vocal comment, many people get annoyed with female voices when they're in a supposedly serious context. But the thing is that it's not actually some fundamentally annoying or distracting quality of the voice- it's that it's different from what they expect: a male voice. "This American Life" had a great segment about this, targeting "vocal fry" in particular: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-a…

High Rising Terminal is a thing and it has nothing to do with gender: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_rising_terminal

Edit: Heck, in the segment you link they even comment on the fact that the guy does it too, and it was one of the first things i noticed. Those are just valley people, that's it.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#17

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 4:34 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #14

skj wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially with the vocal comment, many people get annoyed with female voices when they're in a supposedly serious context. But the thing is that it's not actually some fundamentally annoying or distracting quality of the voice- it's that it's different from what they expect: a male voice. "This American Life" had a great segment about this, targeting "vocal fry" in particular: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-a…

Voices going up - as in, asking a question(?) - is annoying whether it's a female voice or male voice.

It's a feature heavily associated with female voices. So it is discrimination against female voices.

It's also not something people do consciously, it is a feature of dialect. And studies show that why people dislike a dialect has nothing to do with its actual aural qualities, and everything to do with its social status.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#18

Post by kelukelugames » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 4:34 PM UTC

skj wrote: post #8

thomasmarcelis wrote: post #5

One thing I don't agree with, how is the following feedback gender-specific?: “Why are your slides so pink? It’s very distracting.” “Stop pushing your hair behind your ear when you present. It’s very distracting.” “Your voice goes up after every sentence you say.” I feel like this is all valid feedback. Back in university we would also get feedback on our behaviour during our presentations or the look of our slides.

Especially with the vocal comment, many people get annoyed with female voices when they're in a supposedly serious context. But the thing is that it's not actually some fundamentally annoying or distracting quality of the voice- it's that it's different from what they expect: a male voice. "This American Life" had a great segment about this, targeting "vocal fry" in particular: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-a…

I think vocal fry is pretty annoying period, but let's assume it is gender specific. That doesn't mean having poor inflection is a female only problem. Read any public speaking guide or speak to a speech coach, fixing rising inflection is one of the first recommended fixes.

If anyone is interested, I found this book very useful: http://www.amazon.com/Its-Way-You-Say-Well-spoken/dp/1609947...

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#19

Post by spiffyman » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 4:36 PM UTC

I posted this on FB last night and had quite a discussion ensue. I really like what the author has to say about assumptions. As a user group and conference organizer, time and time again I have seen men approach feminine people in the crowd with these just terribly naïve prejudices. "Oh, you must be a junior dev." Or "Who are you here with?" We men should absolutely try to set these poor assumptions aside -- if not for better equality (although why not?), then because of the awkwardness that ensues when someone says "No, actually I'm giving the keynote" or "Yeah, I co-wrote that book." If you don't want to look like an idiot on the regular, don't go around the world thinking every competent person looks/acts/dresses/talks the way you do.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#20

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 4:36 PM UTC

ncallaway wrote: post #11

mrits wrote: post #2

If you worked where I do (on Earth) you will be judged for your gender,age,race,education,social standing, where you grew up, hygiene, personality, religion, etc...

I absolutely don't understand this argument. Person A says "X is happens and is bad". Person B responds "X happens, along with Y, Z, and W." What is the objective of the argument presented by person B? It doesn't refute or disagree with Person A in any way. Is the point to minimize or trivialize X because Y, Z, and W also happen? Does the presence of Y, Z, and W mean we shouldn't make progress on X?

To quote a tweet I read today:

  The only definition of Good vs Evil you really need:
  "Well that's just how the world is..."
  
  EVIL: "So there!"
  GOOD: "So let's change it"

https://twitter.com/arthur_affect/status/574082344073629696