France wants companies to make appliances that last longer • Hacker News Board

Re: France wants companies to make appliances that last longer

#11

Post by imjustsaying » Tue, Mar 03, 2015, 5:43 AM UTC

double0jimb0 wrote: post #8

While good intentioned, I think the customer actually loses. Take the car industry for example. Quality control variance prior to the 90s (ballpark) was a huge issue, this a result from automakers just being cheap and but also the lack of modern statistical-based end of life testing/analysis. The gov't did have to step in: Lemon Laws. But a couple of automakers responded, produced cars that didn't fall apart, people…

I would be interested to see a tracking of the change of new car prices during that time. New car prices today are extraordinarily expensive, and from anecdotal experience, most consumers will only buy new cars through a loan. Surely, it wasn't always that way.

Re: France wants companies to make appliances that last longer

#12

Post by sitharus » Tue, Mar 03, 2015, 5:44 AM UTC

Here in New Zealand all goods sold to a consumer have to have a 'reasonable' life-span, with repair or replacement at the merchant's expense. Reasonable depends on the appliance and is determined by a magistrate. Things like lengths of extended warranty offered can be used to determine that.

It works pretty well. Of course the retailers like to avoid their obligations and people chime up with the "that's why prices are high" argument. If you're located at the bottom of the world everything's expensive anyway!

Re: France wants companies to make appliances that last longer

#13

Post by bobbles » Tue, Mar 03, 2015, 5:52 AM UTC

rodgerd wrote: post #2

The title of the article seems... misleading. It implies the French government is forcing companies to manufacture products in a particular way, when what they are doing is forcing manufacturers to disclose to customer they planned lifespan of a product. Which, by the way, seems like an excellent proposition. As a (potential) customer I can factor in lifespan with features and price for things I buy and make a better…

Would be great if they standardised on 'price per year of use' like they do now in australia where food always has to have the $/100g or $/100ml in addition to the unit price.

(Many supermarkets were basically rorting people by charging more for the 'bulk' items but labelling them as best value)

Re: France wants companies to make appliances that last longer

#14

Post by mc32 » Tue, Mar 03, 2015, 5:52 AM UTC

While on the surface this might sound good by evoking ideas of more sustainability and less and lower velocity of consumerism, we need to consider the goods in question.

For example, let's take a washing machine from 20 years ago and compare the efficiency of a modern washing machine -and subtract the added manufacturing input into the new machine. Or incandescent bulbs and LED lights. Or for that matter older cars and modern cars. I hope they take those things into account. Just because something will last long doesn't mean it's best in the long run.

Still, it's not a bad idea to consider. And then we could at least know how often we might have to buy phones ---but then someone will redefine what a functional mobile phone is "it can make a regular voice call and the battery will last 10 minutes by the 3rd year." The other measure, how long will it keep the same level of utility as it was when it was new? That'd be trickier.

Re: France wants companies to make appliances that last longer

#15

Post by stretchwithme » Tue, Mar 03, 2015, 5:58 AM UTC

double0jimb0 wrote: post #8

While good intentioned, I think the customer actually loses. Take the car industry for example. Quality control variance prior to the 90s (ballpark) was a huge issue, this a result from automakers just being cheap and but also the lack of modern statistical-based end of life testing/analysis. The gov't did have to step in: Lemon Laws. But a couple of automakers responded, produced cars that didn't fall apart, people…

This hardly started in the 90s. Both Honda and Toyota were way ahead of American companies long before the 90s began. They were already using statistical process control, the Taguchi method, concurrent engineering and the five whys long.

Re: France wants companies to make appliances that last longer

#16

Post by swatow » Tue, Mar 03, 2015, 6:19 AM UTC

I doubt planned obsolescence is common. Think about the reaction of the consumer to something breaking down. Do they go "that was a great product, pity it broke, better buy the new version" or do they say "that was a shit product, I'm getting a different brand". And what about people figuring out which products break early from Amazon reviews?

I think this law is probably heavy handed and unnecessary. Especially in an age where most people spend their money on items like phones and laptops, which are reparable and become obsolete very fast anyway.

Re: France wants companies to make appliances that last longer

#17

Post by swatow » Tue, Mar 03, 2015, 6:21 AM UTC

rodgerd wrote: post #2

The title of the article seems... misleading. It implies the French government is forcing companies to manufacture products in a particular way, when what they are doing is forcing manufacturers to disclose to customer they planned lifespan of a product. Which, by the way, seems like an excellent proposition. As a (potential) customer I can factor in lifespan with features and price for things I buy and make a better…

> Anything that gives customers more accurate information should lead to better-functioning markets.

Not if the information is vague or subjective or manipulable (as I think "expected lifespan" would be), or if that information is very costly for the manufacturer to estimate, or for the government to verify.

Sometimes its better to let the market work on its own, e.g. through product reviews.

Re: France wants companies to make appliances that last longer

#18

Post by molyss » Tue, Mar 03, 2015, 6:31 AM UTC

swatow wrote: post #17

rodgerd wrote: post #2

The title of the article seems... misleading. It implies the French government is forcing companies to manufacture products in a particular way, when what they are doing is forcing manufacturers to disclose to customer they planned lifespan of a product. Which, by the way, seems like an excellent proposition. As a (potential) customer I can factor in lifespan with features and price for things I buy and make a better…

> Anything that gives customers more accurate information should lead to better-functioning markets. Not if the information is vague or subjective or manipulable (as I think "expected lifespan" would be), or if that information is very costly for the manufacturer to estimate, or for the government to verify. Sometimes its better to let the market work on its own, e.g. through product reviews.

unfortunately, product reviews don't give any information whatsoever on the lifespan of any product, instead focusing on the instant gratification, ease of use and shiny new things. Maybe that's what the consumer wants, but maybe that's just the only information they have access to in order to decide how to get the most bang for their bucks. Giving different information will at least let everyone decide what they believe is the most bangs (lifespan vs shiny new things) and buy accordingly

Re: France wants companies to make appliances that last longer

#19

Post by molyss » Tue, Mar 03, 2015, 6:39 AM UTC

swatow wrote: post #16

I doubt planned obsolescence is common. Think about the reaction of the consumer to something breaking down. Do they go "that was a great product, pity it broke, better buy the new version" or do they say "that was a shit product, I'm getting a different brand". And what about people figuring out which products break early from Amazon reviews? I think this law is probably heavy handed and unnecessary. Especially in a…

I feel like planned obsolescence is much more common that we initially think. For example, on the phone market, battery lasts on day out of the box. If we consider the battery losing .05% of its total charge after each charge/decharge cycle, after 2 years of constant use, it already lost 30% of its total charge. Yet, despite everyone being annoyed with having to charge their phones at least everyday, apple, samsung and others keep making phones that last a single day on a charge. They make their phones bigger, bulkier, faster, but nothing on the battery side (I think there was an article linked here where the author claimed he cracked the apple battery equation and his thought was "they make it last a day, not more not less)". And we can add to that prohibitive repair price and refusal to support older platforms, even though it's often just a cross compilation away.

I get it that it's probably better for any company out there to sell new devices rather than support old ones for free. It just that the "I doubt planned obsolescence is common" strikes me as a bit naive

Re: France wants companies to make appliances that last longer

#20

Post by swatow » Tue, Mar 03, 2015, 6:50 AM UTC

molyss wrote: post #19

swatow wrote: post #16

I doubt planned obsolescence is common. Think about the reaction of the consumer to something breaking down. Do they go "that was a great product, pity it broke, better buy the new version" or do they say "that was a shit product, I'm getting a different brand". And what about people figuring out which products break early from Amazon reviews? I think this law is probably heavy handed and unnecessary. Especially in a…

I feel like planned obsolescence is much more common that we initially think. For example, on the phone market, battery lasts on day out of the box. If we consider the battery losing .05% of its total charge after each charge/decharge cycle, after 2 years of constant use, it already lost 30% of its total charge. Yet, despite everyone being annoyed with having to charge their phones at least everyday, apple, samsung a…

Everything is a tradeoff with phones. There is a tradeoff between phone size, battery life, and processor power. One day is a natural sweet spot since people charge their phones at night. Sure, this will result in a less-than-one-day battery life over time But people might have been happy to replace their phone anyway for other reasons.

Supporting old platforms is not just cross compilation, or at least the cross compilation involved is highly non-trivial.

I would say that excessive cynicism is as bad a bias as naivety. Everything you describe is actually consistent with perfectly informed consumers and profit maximizing companies. You are just not looking for explanations along these lines.