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Is Blockchain Really the Killer App?

joecoin.com

11–20 of 103 posts

Re: Is Blockchain Really the Killer App?

#11
post #2

The common adage seems to be "storage is cheap", meaning "multi-TB blockchains won't be a problem because you can buy that much storage for a few hundred dollars". But I think the stupidly-large size of the blockchain is a major hurdle, given the concurrent trend of miniaturization. Embedded devices like one might find in the much-vaunted "internet of things" (eyeball roll) can't really afford to be toting six SSDs j…

A friend of mine joined chain.com and, as I understand it, their value proposition is to handle the load of blockchain while providing trusted access to whatever needs to be known. I'm no expert, but this seems like the right sort of solution for the problem you pose. Blockchain management is handled in the cloud, and clients (including embedded devices) talk securely to a trusted cloud service to get the relevant de…

What defines "trusted access?" One of the points of bitcoin / blockchain is not having to trust anyone involved.

Re: Is Blockchain Really the Killer App?

#13
post #2

The common adage seems to be "storage is cheap", meaning "multi-TB blockchains won't be a problem because you can buy that much storage for a few hundred dollars". But I think the stupidly-large size of the blockchain is a major hurdle, given the concurrent trend of miniaturization. Embedded devices like one might find in the much-vaunted "internet of things" (eyeball roll) can't really afford to be toting six SSDs j…

I recently replaced an old HDD with a new SSD for my win7 install. I had over 100g of blockchains for various coins in my user app data folder. To rebuild from scratch would have taken days and a big chunk of my broadband data allowance. I know it's centralisation and goes against one of the features of the blockchain, but having trusted hubs through which to interact would save a lot of wasted space, time and data.…

You know what would save a lot more space, time, data, cpu power, hardware, and energy?

Not using cryptocurrency.

Re: Is Blockchain Really the Killer App?

#14
post #9

I kinda get the author's point here - to run a proof of work based system you need an incentive to actually do the work. Bitcoin has such incentives, and so it will succeed for any tool that people try to run on it. If you try to create a new system, you have to convince people to do the work in the first place. So it makes much more sense to use bitcoin as your distributed consensus system, for whatever application…

an attempt at answering this:

fact: people working on useful tools benefit us all problem: incentive is only big-picture, feel good. money is, by design, ridiculously hard to come by for helpful projects. teachers, farmers, babysitters, soldiers and many other professions provide valuable service to society yet make only a fraction of what money-manipulators (bankers who specialize in generating $$ from $) or cross-cultural entertainment like motion pictures.

Patents, trade secrets, close source & government regulations all contribute to incidentally de-incentivize many projects built around benefitting a large chunk of humanity as opposed to localized (individual, corporate or nation-state) profiteering. I ran into this recently designing - a distributed protocol where programmers receive escrowed bitcoins for an open-source project accepting their work, merging it into the master branch of the project. The payout system sounded promising, but the money had to come from somewhere and be managed to fund these projects!

So how can we, the people, reward people for doing good things, things we like?

"FarmerCoin", described below, is a thought experiment where local Farmers can receive fiat-by-consensus cryptocurrency in exchange for an independent third-party recording (both videographically and on a chain of signatures) the farmer's produce.

I propose the formation of semi-independent regulators for specific industries who accept payment of their choice to regulate a deed done. Regulators film their investigation and verification of the deed, publish to the protocol along with a signed message containing a hash of the video and a magnet link for nodes to torrent.

Once regulators have published a video, end-users known as "verifiers" or "voters" who have clients monitoring the network receive a notification that there is a verification to vote on. This would involve torrenting or finding the video online, verifying its hash, playing the video, then presenting a vote to the user. This vote would say "This is acceptable" or "This is not acceptable".

In "FarmerCoin", this plays out by the farmer showing regulators a bin of vegetables. 10kg of tomatoes, for example. Regulators film the weighing of the tomatoes then use a software to upload that video, a signature of its hash and farmer identity information to the network. If the tomatoes were rotten, the regulators are incentivized not to upload a video because their reputation may become damaged and farmers will not hire them (see next paragraph for why).

Farmer receives "FarmerCoin" for 10kg of tomatoes as the network approves it. If the network disapproves the quality of the tomatoes, the farmer receives nothing.

I admit - there is a flaw in this design. How much "FarmerCoin" is 10kg of tomatoes "worth"? I'm not sure. I don't know how to answer that. Maybe "FarmerCoin" should be generated per calendar year. Please discuss because I think this, at the time of writing, is the only missing link I see in the system.

Regarding the voters - trusting the internet as a whole to vote on if a farmer gets paid is ripe for exploitations. Instead, "FarmerCoin" could use votes only from public-keys the farmer has explicitly accepted to vote for them! Namely these are the farmer's regular customers at the market. This solves the trust problem on a human level. Trying to make this system "completely automated" ignores the fact that real-world actions are happening, which require intelligence. We don't have software to do this process so I think the best bet is to incentivize voters by also generating "FarmerCoin" for each vote they cast.

To be clear, YES "FarmerCoin" is generated by fiat. It is a more decentralized kind of fiat. For that reason and the reason that it is in the voters' -- who are customers of the farmer -- best interest to see the farmer receive accurate feedback on their produce so they grow better yields. ((FIRST REASON???))

YAKSEE As far as how does "FarmerCoin" have value or "Yet Anthoer Crypto Currency" - consider this. When people speak of "Bitcoin" as being "decentralized", they really are only referring to network logs and the theoretical potential to generate currency. In actuality, those who held existing fiat resources and hardware manufacturing quickly became juggernauts in the cryptocurrency world. I mention this because when I talk about the "fiat" of the above localized consensus I imagine many crypto-currency fans revolt and insist that no, only computationally generated cryptocurrencies are valuable because commerce should be "trustless". I feel that on an intuitive level striving for a trustless society is mal-incentivized. "FarmerCoin"(s) gives us another kind of cryptocurrency just like LiteCoin's alternative hashing algorithim co-exists with Bitcoin.

Besides the intrinsic value of whatever a cryptocurrency with a novel generation mechanism, "FarmerCoin" could be accepted by farmers for discounts on food that those same voters gave feedback on. I think this completes the incentive circuit quite nicely.

MANY FARMERCOIN "FarmerCoin" could be Tomato Coin, Apple Coin. It could also exist for each specific farm, or region. This would be up to the farmers, regulators and community of voters to work together and decide. Having an exchange (centralized or not) for these currencies to trade could provide additional economic incentives to the voters and farmers. Even if "regular" cryptocurrency is not traded for FarmerCoin, community specific networks could trade eg plows, immunizations etc.

EXPANSE This concept can be applied to many real world actions. Making a work of art, patching a pothole, giving someone the finger, giving your cat a ball of yarn. Only if the community finds vaue in the "FarmerCoin" they are receiving and the farmer finds it beneficial to receive this subsidized fiat-by-consensus currency will the currency survive.

Re: Is Blockchain Really the Killer App?

#15
post #10
post #8

> "The moment one becomes centralized, whether due to a flaw in the protocol or the concentration of mining power, it is no better (and probably worse in fact) than fiat money, e-gold, or any other monetary scheme which is vulnerable to capture by a minority, and therefore vulnerable to abusive seigniorage and capital controls." Hasn't this already happened? I believe I heard something about a '51%' attack some time…

The Bitcoin wiki gives full details[1], but tldr, 51% attack breaks most elements of the blockchain (reverse attacker's transactions => double spending, prevent transactions from getting confirmation, prevent valid blocks originating elsewhere) but doesn't allow the attacker to arbitrarily rewrite history. As far as "hasn't this already happened", some of the mining pools in aggregate have had or presently could comb…

Thanks for the clarification.

> "...so is economically not a good idea for them."

This would imply that the trust model itself would have to undergo a fundamental shift (and likely has done). There are now entities you have to trust, rather than the system itself -- at which point the decentralised aspect is less of a defining feature.

Re: Is Blockchain Really the Killer App?

#16
post #2

The common adage seems to be "storage is cheap", meaning "multi-TB blockchains won't be a problem because you can buy that much storage for a few hundred dollars". But I think the stupidly-large size of the blockchain is a major hurdle, given the concurrent trend of miniaturization. Embedded devices like one might find in the much-vaunted "internet of things" (eyeball roll) can't really afford to be toting six SSDs j…

A friend of mine joined chain.com and, as I understand it, their value proposition is to handle the load of blockchain while providing trusted access to whatever needs to be known. I'm no expert, but this seems like the right sort of solution for the problem you pose. Blockchain management is handled in the cloud, and clients (including embedded devices) talk securely to a trusted cloud service to get the relevant de…

That seems self defeating. None of the advantages of a decentralized system are realized by centralizing the blockchain

Re: Is Blockchain Really the Killer App?

#17
I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion at the end. Supposing that sidechains can be mined simultaneously with the bitcoin at no additional cost, and that there is a fixed bitcoin sidecoin conversion (not market based) built in to the protocol, bitcoin would never completely lose its value, because it could be converted to sidecoin at the same rate it would be before. The market price would be fixed to some small price differential below the price of the amount of sidecoin it could be converted to.

The thing about bitcoin is there are a lot of things done "wrong" with it, that are impossible to retrofit into it. However, the network effect means that it's also impossible to switch to another altcoin without completely devaluing bitcoin, which would mean that the altcoin would be devalued because it could happen to the altcoin as well. I agree with that part. However, something that's pinned to the value of bitcoin like what I've read of the sidechain proposal would be a way to do that.

Re: Is Blockchain Really the Killer App?

#18
post #2

The common adage seems to be "storage is cheap", meaning "multi-TB blockchains won't be a problem because you can buy that much storage for a few hundred dollars". But I think the stupidly-large size of the blockchain is a major hurdle, given the concurrent trend of miniaturization. Embedded devices like one might find in the much-vaunted "internet of things" (eyeball roll) can't really afford to be toting six SSDs j…

You're dead right. A serious problem with the Bitcoin and Dogecoin clients (which I last used some time ago, but which changed relatively little over time) is taht they just installed themselves on the boot drive (if you're running windows) and had little in the way of configuration options. Cut to a few months later when I'm wondering why I'm running out of space on my SSD, only to realize that it's full of gigabytes of blockchain data that is a complete waste of space, with no convient way to put it somewhere else.

Could I manually get it installed and running on another large-volume and slower speed drive where this wouldn't be an issue, of course. But why do I want to bother even dealing with something so user-hostile? The average Joe or Jill who isn't a computer nerd is just going to see this thing eating his/her hard drive and get rid of it.

Re: Is Blockchain Really the Killer App?

#19
post #5
post #3

You mean, Blockchain is the platform and 'currency' is the first killer app?

Yeah, "killer app" means a powerful application of technology, not the technology itself. The emphasis is that cool-technology is not enough, you need to get work (or play) out of it. A warp-drive is just a technology, but "colonizing the galaxy" is the application which will make people really use it.

The thing is, the regular payments system (plastic cards, Dollars, Euros, and other national currencies) already works very well for the vast majority of people. If you're a merchant, then you should certainly think about being able to accept payments in Bitcoin, but as a consumer I'm having difficulty thinking of an instance where I've ever said to myself 'I need some Bitcoin...'. If I was into drugs it would be convenient, I guess, but hte size of the illegal drug market :: regular commerce is pretty small, and I'd imagine drugs about the largest illegal consumer market by a long way. Other contraband markets involve much higher risk factors and are correspondingly smaller.

Re: Is Blockchain Really the Killer App?

#20
post #5
post #3

You mean, Blockchain is the platform and 'currency' is the first killer app?

Yeah, "killer app" means a powerful application of technology, not the technology itself. The emphasis is that cool-technology is not enough, you need to get work (or play) out of it. A warp-drive is just a technology, but "colonizing the galaxy" is the application which will make people really use it.

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