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Why fuel cell cars don't work

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Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#11

Post by crimsonalucard »

Gravityloss wrote: post #8
phkahler wrote: post #7

The best source of hydrogen comes from the ground. You pump this stuff out - it's long molecules consisting of a carbon backbone covered in hydrogen. You run it through something called a "reformer" to strip the hydrogen off. The reformer could be put on a car, but it'd be more efficient to do it on an industrial scale. Actually wait, if you just use a combustion process you can get energy from both the hydrogen and…

Excess wind and solar power can be used to generate hydrogen from water.

There is no excess. Renewables do not have anywhere near the capacity to charge a fuel cell automobile economy.

Additionally, if there was capacity why not use it to charge lithium batteries?

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#12

Post by alephnil »

r00fus wrote: post #5

The article deftly steps around the real issue: Fuel Cells are entirely an petroleum industry promotion. The goal is to provide a seemingly credible (but in reality completely unworkable) clean alternative so politicians, car companies and oil companies together can work "towards a clean future" while deep down knowing that it's a stalling tactic to keep the petroleum infrastructure in place. Any fuel cell funding su…

He does not raise that topic, but as I see it, that's a strength of the article. It questions the utility of fuel cell hydrogen cars entirely on technical grounds, providing good arguments for why that is not a good technology to bet on in the future, from someone that has participated in developing said technology. This gives much more weight to his arguments than if he had started to discuss how this is some plot to keep the petroleum infrastructure in place. Instead the article gives solid arguments for technical minded people, that can be used in political discussions elsewhere

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#13

Post by graphene »

Gravityloss wrote: post #8
phkahler wrote: post #7

The best source of hydrogen comes from the ground. You pump this stuff out - it's long molecules consisting of a carbon backbone covered in hydrogen. You run it through something called a "reformer" to strip the hydrogen off. The reformer could be put on a car, but it'd be more efficient to do it on an industrial scale. Actually wait, if you just use a combustion process you can get energy from both the hydrogen and…

Excess wind and solar power can be used to generate hydrogen from water.

Unfortunately, there's no efficient process for that. Efficiency of electrolysis (when not using expensive catalysts) is around 50%.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#14

Post by crimsonalucard »

Retric wrote: post #3

On solution to the long distance car storage is simply not to. There are less than 50,000 miles of interstate highways in the US. If we added a 3rd rail or similar system for powering cars as they traveled range and efficiency quickly become a non issue. Granted, the interstate highway system would just be the start eventually you would want to cover just about every road. Not to mention safety concerns etc, but it's…

Unlike Europe, most of the urban infrastructure of the United states centers around the automobile. I'm not referring to roads vs train tracks. I'm referring to density Of the population. Our suburban cul De sacs make most forms of rail based public transportation prohibitely expensive to build. Only in a high density city like nyc would this make sense. To address the problem we need to dramitcally change our cities.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#15

Post by hackuser »

soperj wrote: post #9
r00fus wrote: post #5

The article deftly steps around the real issue: Fuel Cells are entirely an petroleum industry promotion. The goal is to provide a seemingly credible (but in reality completely unworkable) clean alternative so politicians, car companies and oil companies together can work "towards a clean future" while deep down knowing that it's a stalling tactic to keep the petroleum infrastructure in place. Any fuel cell funding su…

I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil. What on earth do the car companies have to get out of it? The big name in the 90s, Ballard, had buy in from a couple of car companies and no oil companies.

> I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil.

I'd guess car manufacturers have two economic interests: 1) The less energy for automobiles costs, the more people will use them, and 2) the less economic harm there is from climate change, the more people will use cars.

I could see #1 motivating auto manufacturers to support the oil industry, and #2 motivating them to support clean energy.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#16

Post by rational-future »

soperj wrote: post #9
r00fus wrote: post #5

The article deftly steps around the real issue: Fuel Cells are entirely an petroleum industry promotion. The goal is to provide a seemingly credible (but in reality completely unworkable) clean alternative so politicians, car companies and oil companies together can work "towards a clean future" while deep down knowing that it's a stalling tactic to keep the petroleum infrastructure in place. Any fuel cell funding su…

I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil. What on earth do the car companies have to get out of it? The big name in the 90s, Ballard, had buy in from a couple of car companies and no oil companies.

The conspiracy hypothesis is that the oil people have long ago acquired controlling interest in the auto corporations. Via foundations, funds, banks, etc.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#17

Post by sandstrom »

Gravityloss wrote: post #8
phkahler wrote: post #7

The best source of hydrogen comes from the ground. You pump this stuff out - it's long molecules consisting of a carbon backbone covered in hydrogen. You run it through something called a "reformer" to strip the hydrogen off. The reformer could be put on a car, but it'd be more efficient to do it on an industrial scale. Actually wait, if you just use a combustion process you can get energy from both the hydrogen and…

Excess wind and solar power can be used to generate hydrogen from water.

I think that with current technology it's more efficient to store that energy in a battery than in the form of hydrogen (hydrogen is just a storage mechanism).

But it's a storage mechanism with the huge downside of being available from natural gas, so with widespread use of hydrogen we be equivalent to widespread continuous pumping of huge amounts of CO2 into oceans and the atmosphere. Something which most people consider foolish[1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_global_warming

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#18

Post by crimsonalucard »

aetherson wrote: post #6
Retric wrote: post #3

On solution to the long distance car storage is simply not to. There are less than 50,000 miles of interstate highways in the US. If we added a 3rd rail or similar system for powering cars as they traveled range and efficiency quickly become a non issue. Granted, the interstate highway system would just be the start eventually you would want to cover just about every road. Not to mention safety concerns etc, but it's…

This is an extraordinary claim and I'd like to see some evidence that it's anything like possible.

Look up energy efficiency per person in cities like NYC versus Los Angeles. Subways , rail based transportation, and public transportation significantly reduce energy usage per person. The problem is that it's impossible to build these systems in the huge suburban sprawls that make up most of the United states.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#19

Post by hansjorg »

Toyota, which is the largest car manufacturer by volume, have stated repeatedly that they are betting on hydrogen fuel cells rather than batteries.

Given their track record with hybrids, one would think that they know their battery technology.

None of the anti-hydrogen fuel cell articles that have popped up here lately have mentioned this. It would be interesting to see an analysis of the Toyota strategy from this point of view.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#20

Post by ars »

graphene wrote: post #13
Gravityloss wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excess wind and solar power can be used to generate hydrogen from water.

Unfortunately, there's no efficient process for that. Efficiency of electrolysis (when not using expensive catalysts) is around 50%.

Use thermolysis instead. You can power it with waste heat from a nuclear plant.
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