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Don't use the mailing lists

blog.ironholds.org

11–20 of 34 posts

Re: Don't use the mailing lists

#12
post #11

I think there are too many words in this article, simply to express that the author had his feelings hurt.

The author points out a common complaint about contributing to open source.

A small number of people are very busy. They can also be rude.

Being welcoming to people while avoiding the tarpit of HelpVampires is important and is not yet a solved problem.

Since many people on HN work on products that want some kind of community it's possibly a useful topic.

I kind of wish that MeatBall Wiki was easier to navigate and expanded their online personality stuff. It'd be a fantastic resource if they did.

Re: Don't use the mailing lists

#13
While this may not be the case in this situation, recently I've noticed that people are becoming extreme wimps..

People, especially younger generation can't stand being treated harshly. You can't criticize them, and every response must be nice, politically correct and helpful.

Sometimes you just have to let it go, or simply fight back. And when you do fight back, be prepared because it's unlikely that you will win every time.. Such is life. Grow a pair.

When I was younger it was normal for kids to fight in school. Nobody really cared if you got your ass kicked once in a while. And often times you kicked some ass. This helped people realize that not everyone in their life will be nice and helpful, and that sometimes you need to have a thick skin and ignore what people are saying. Now it seems kids, when they get laugh at or in some one offended, if they can't get help from the adult they just grab a gun or a knife and start killing people because they simply never had a chance to learn how to deal with competition.

Re: Don't use the mailing lists

#14
Perhaps some of the disagreements in working style are due to shifts in the R community? Ripley has been an active member of the Bell Labs S, and later GNU R, communities for about 20-25 years, over which period the user/contributor composition has shifted considerably, which might produce different shared norms/expectations and different friction points. 20 years ago the community was much more exclusively comprised of computationally oriented PhD statisticians, among other differences.

Re: Don't use the mailing lists

#15
In the time it took him to write that post, he could have found his unterminated string and resubmitted.

I originally asked if the author is an adult, but then I decided to revisit the article and saw the link to his CV (http://ironholds.org/cv.html). I'll note that the picture he chose is himself as a small child and that he proudly notes, 'while at university I (amongst other things) occupied my time with acting as the Equality & Diversity officer for the Students' Union, and working as a political campaigner for the Liberal Democrats.'

This leads me to conclude that no, he's not an adult, self-reliant and self-actualised, but is instead still mentally a child, dependent on others for validation. I'm sure he's a very smart guy, but he has got to grow up.

Re: Don't use the mailing lists

#16

While this may not be the case in this situation, recently I've noticed that people are becoming extreme wimps.. People, especially younger generation can't stand being treated harshly. You can't criticize them, and every response must be nice, politically correct and helpful. Sometimes you just have to let it go, or simply fight back. And when you do fight back, be prepared because it's unlikely that you will win ev…

If I've written and published a new algorithm, and my submission to the open-source community is met with "It sucks, go read up on our guidelines"* , I'm not inclined to spend my free time on a resubmission.

It seems childishly wasteful to turn away potential contributors because you simply feel you have the right to be an asshole to people. Personally, if you want to treat me harshly for my work, I expect some good money.

* Paraphrased reaction to software a classmate sent in after completing her thesis

Re: Don't use the mailing lists

#17
post #6

Would one potential solution be to create a secondary optional gatekeeper? The basic idea would be - don't submit directly. First submit to the community gatekeepers, they will look over your work, and if they think it will meet approval, they'll pass it on. Otherwise they can give helpful feedback. They can have strong standards about how contributors are treated. This extra step can be optional - if you don't mind…

Not defending anyone just a 30,000 foot view.

The issue is that it really appears that it is a clash in personalities. When someone says they love R's community and then emphasis that it is a terrible language they lost me. In Open Source there are many examples of "mean" gate keepers. We see splits in the communities with examples all over i.e. ffmpeg vs libav.

This isn't the way to go about change by belittling the language and then say ALL of mail list when he has a personal issue with one person. This is not going to be healthy nor helpful unless there is documentation on conflict resolution that already took place.

Just my humble opinion.

Re: Don't use the mailing lists

#18
The R Core Team has included a lot of new members to its team. A lot of those members are mentioned in this article as positive to the community.

http://blog.revolutionanalytics.com/2014/09/new-members-for-...

Community building is something new to R in my experience. I would give it a little more time. I would also like to reiterate one of the strongest tenets of free software is that it is only as big as what YOU put into it.

Re: Don't use the mailing lists

#19
post #16

While this may not be the case in this situation, recently I've noticed that people are becoming extreme wimps.. People, especially younger generation can't stand being treated harshly. You can't criticize them, and every response must be nice, politically correct and helpful. Sometimes you just have to let it go, or simply fight back. And when you do fight back, be prepared because it's unlikely that you will win ev…

If I've written and published a new algorithm, and my submission to the open-source community is met with "It sucks, go read up on our guidelines"* , I'm not inclined to spend my free time on a resubmission. It seems childishly wasteful to turn away potential contributors because you simply feel you have the right to be an asshole to people. Personally, if you want to treat me harshly for my work, I expect some good…

I agree--I once used a library and noticed that it was missing some functionality. The mailing list had a number of people requesting this functionality. I found an older piece of code with the functionality and updated it to the language of the library. I got license permissions from all the original authors. I submitted it and the maintainers raised some questions about code quality--but one of the maintainers thought there was a workaround and didn't really want to add it. I acted on the code quality issues and the code just sat around and was never accepted and the mailing list still (years later) has people asking for the functionality, but I'm not going to spend more time on it when it seems that outside contributions are not welcome. This was after climbing the barriers to entry of trying to figure out the layout of the project, procedures for submission, etc.

In contrast, there was another project where my student and I noticed a bug in a piece of software and patched it. It was quickly accepted and we moved on. I would be happy to contribute to that project again.

It's all about barriers to entry. If a project wants outside contributors, those barriers need to be low. Of course, the project creators/maintainers are also doing this in their free time, so have the right to do what they want, but they should expect less community contributions if they make those barriers high...

Re: Don't use the mailing lists

#20
This attitude is gross: open source contributors are not your bitches.

And in open source, if you spot a problem: fix it by contributing.

Shaming someone publicly (isn't it bullying?) that contributes a lot for «being unnice» on his spare time helping people is like shaming a construction worker for being sweaty.

Instead of whining he should take part of the load. Especially if he ares about the community.

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