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Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

blogs.scientificamerican.com

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Re: Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

#11

Post by lifeisstillgood »

johnloeber wrote: post #4

Huh, interesting. This makes me think about domestication of animals: it's not just about us training or imposing our will on animals, but it's also about animals understanding that they can use us as tools, as the article puts it. I say this in jest, but it sort of makes you wonder about who is using whom. Oftentimes, I notice how pets (esp. cats[0]) are looked after 24/7 by their owners, groomed, given food, shelte…

Looking after a puppy - yes, it's stressful and far less rewarding than children. Signed, a cat person.

I do however think this is a brilliant insight and in hindsight so obvious.

Re: Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

#12

Post by rebootthesystem »

I've raised and trained working line German Shepherd Dogs (GSD's) most of my adult life. The degree of communication you can have with a dog is sometimes incredible. Yes, they tell you what they want and figure out ways to communicate what they need. Very soon you develop a mutual "language" of sorts. We use hand signals for everything (as well as spoken commands). So I can be at a really noisy outdoor setting and tell them what to do without uttering a word.

They also learn which member of the family is best for each need. For example, they learned that cuddling-up with my young daughter is always a sure bet, they rarely ask my oldest son for that level of attention.

There's also the empathy. I've seen some amazing things, like a female GSD jumping up on the bed to cuddle-up with my wife when she got a phone call with bad news. It's freaky.

They know they are not allowed in my office and stop and sit or lay down at the door. But they can also read when I am receptive to them coming in for a quick hug. They actually seem to understand when I need a break. It's an amazing relationship that I couldn't do without.

Re: Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

#13

Post by ekianjo »

johnloeber wrote: post #4

Huh, interesting. This makes me think about domestication of animals: it's not just about us training or imposing our will on animals, but it's also about animals understanding that they can use us as tools, as the article puts it. I say this in jest, but it sort of makes you wonder about who is using whom. Oftentimes, I notice how pets (esp. cats[0]) are looked after 24/7 by their owners, groomed, given food, shelte…

> Traditionally, we like to think of animals as serving humans, but in a case like this, isn't the opposite true?

You don't consider that animals provide emotional comfort? And make owners exercise, as well, since you need to go walk with your pets on a daily basis?

Re: Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

#14

Post by comex »

johnloeber wrote: post #4

Huh, interesting. This makes me think about domestication of animals: it's not just about us training or imposing our will on animals, but it's also about animals understanding that they can use us as tools, as the article puts it. I say this in jest, but it sort of makes you wonder about who is using whom. Oftentimes, I notice how pets (esp. cats[0]) are looked after 24/7 by their owners, groomed, given food, shelte…

> Traditionally, we like to think of animals as serving humans, but in a case like this, isn't the opposite true?

As someone who's lived in a household with dogs and a cat, I never saw it that way. After all, most pets do not provide any practical service to their owners. When I threw a stick over and over to have the puppy bring it back to me, I may have been the one running the show, supposedly the master, but I always thought of it as my service to her; sure, it was enjoyable to me to have something to do outside, and to watch her speed and grace, but humans get tired of repetition a lot faster than dogs (and teaching her to do more interesting things than catch would have been quite a lot of work). Inside the house, it might have been nice seeing the older dog around, and to initiate play when I felt like it, but on the many, many occasions she decided to plop a filthy chew toy next to me on the couch (in the hope that I'd throw it - any attempt to remove the toy from the couch counted as a throw, resulting in her fetching it back to the couch!), I'd hardly associate the resulting exasperation with the feeling of having a servant. And I didn't have many actual duties myself - I'm sure this was felt double by the ones who dealt with their food and daily exercise.

But there's no need to be verbose. A pet is simply a lite version of a human child. Physically, the parent does everything for the child; the reward is emotional, and quite high to make up for the former...

Re: Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

#15

Post by Pyxl101 »

johnloeber wrote: post #4

Huh, interesting. This makes me think about domestication of animals: it's not just about us training or imposing our will on animals, but it's also about animals understanding that they can use us as tools, as the article puts it. I say this in jest, but it sort of makes you wonder about who is using whom. Oftentimes, I notice how pets (esp. cats[0]) are looked after 24/7 by their owners, groomed, given food, shelte…

> Oftentimes, I notice how pets (esp. cats[0]) are looked after 24/7 by their owners, groomed, given food, shelter, etc. and pretty much do nothing but continuously solicit pleasure.

Cats continually police the household to detect and eliminate vermin and other such pests, as well as acting as a deterrent to keep the pests and some other animals away. This function used to be more relevant in the past than it is today, however.

That said, I agree that cats are certainly in it to live a comfortable life. There's not really enough cognitive ability for there to be an exchange of comfort and labor, so humans just took advantage of cats' inherent nature. They require a pittance of food for performing a valuable service that humans struggle with doing directly.

These days, many households no longer require the services of a cat. In those households cats provide companionship. It might sound silly to compare the companionship of an animal to that with other humans, but unlike all relationships with humans, animals are nonjudgmental and always present and affectionate regardless of the circumstances. This might be the pets' adaptation to gaming the humans, but the humans nevertheless still find it to be a valuable service. There may be health benefits as well. I don't have any studies to reference, and I haven't researched the topic, but I've heard it mentioned a number of times: http://www.webmd.com/hypertension-high-blood-pressure/featur...

Describing cats as semi-domesticated seems accurate. They make eye contact and many cats are clearly interested in having a relationship with you individually (not all of them are aloof). They will come to you and meow for help solving problems. They're smart enough to "ask" you to open doors and perform other actions for them. But they don't really have a dog's attentiveness and perceptiveness toward the person, nor the dog's body language and subtlety of interaction. People like cats in part because they are independent and not needy. Owners don't need to worry about a cat going crazy if left alone in a house for a few days. However, I suspect that cats would score somewhere in between dogs and wolves on the tests mentioned in the article.

Re: Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

#16

Post by agumonkey »

rebootthesystem wrote: post #12

I've raised and trained working line German Shepherd Dogs (GSD's) most of my adult life. The degree of communication you can have with a dog is sometimes incredible. Yes, they tell you what they want and figure out ways to communicate what they need. Very soon you develop a mutual "language" of sorts. We use hand signals for everything (as well as spoken commands). So I can be at a really noisy outdoor setting and te…

This was on imgur recently http://imgur.com/gallery/Octdtr3 dog reacting to owner having a PTSD attack.

On the other side of the spectrum I remember a friend taking her young lab back into her car because he wasn't behaving right, and that little puppy, right before closing the door, pulled the most saddest face (yet funny) I've ever seen: sad eyes, tilted head, sad sounds, everything in order for an Oscar.

Re: Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

#17

Post by icebraining »

ekianjo wrote: post #13
johnloeber wrote: post #4

Huh, interesting. This makes me think about domestication of animals: it's not just about us training or imposing our will on animals, but it's also about animals understanding that they can use us as tools, as the article puts it. I say this in jest, but it sort of makes you wonder about who is using whom. Oftentimes, I notice how pets (esp. cats[0]) are looked after 24/7 by their owners, groomed, given food, shelte…

> Traditionally, we like to think of animals as serving humans, but in a case like this, isn't the opposite true? You don't consider that animals provide emotional comfort? And make owners exercise, as well, since you need to go walk with your pets on a daily basis?

you need to go walk with your pets on a daily basis?

Only for a very restricted definition of "pets"; my turtles never asked for such thing :)

Re: Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

#18

Post by danieltillett »

johnloeber wrote: post #4

Huh, interesting. This makes me think about domestication of animals: it's not just about us training or imposing our will on animals, but it's also about animals understanding that they can use us as tools, as the article puts it. I say this in jest, but it sort of makes you wonder about who is using whom. Oftentimes, I notice how pets (esp. cats[0]) are looked after 24/7 by their owners, groomed, given food, shelte…

When it comes to who is using who in the natural world then it is best to use the golden rule - he with the gold makes the rules. Ultimately the partner in any relationship who takes more than they give is in the subordinate position.

Re: Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

#19

Post by ikurei »

ekianjo wrote: post #13
johnloeber wrote: post #4

Huh, interesting. This makes me think about domestication of animals: it's not just about us training or imposing our will on animals, but it's also about animals understanding that they can use us as tools, as the article puts it. I say this in jest, but it sort of makes you wonder about who is using whom. Oftentimes, I notice how pets (esp. cats[0]) are looked after 24/7 by their owners, groomed, given food, shelte…

> Traditionally, we like to think of animals as serving humans, but in a case like this, isn't the opposite true? You don't consider that animals provide emotional comfort? And make owners exercise, as well, since you need to go walk with your pets on a daily basis?

Both are valid perspectives. I think we are using each other, which might be common to most social interactions.

Re: Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

#20

Post by CurtMonash »

Cats communicate with humans a little bit, but much less than dogs do. For example, my cat, known on Twitter as the SOFS (Small Orange Furry Sociopath), has developed a very small "vocabulary" of sounds and actions to communicate with my wife and me. But really, he's not clear and consistent about anything more sophisticated than "Pay attention to me!" or "Stop touching me there!" And there isn't a single word I'm sure he understands, although I lean toward the affirmative in the case of his name.

I.e., his side of communication adds up to no more than what in a dog might be a couple of tones of bark, a fast tailwag, and the grabbing of a leash to indicate enthusiasm for the of a walk.

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